Underrated Dylan (+)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is a part of the. [00:00:01] Speaker B: FM Podcast Network, the home of great music podcasts. [00:00:06] Speaker A: Visit [email protected]. You are listening to the Dylan Taunts podcast. [00:00:15] Speaker C: Hey, everyone. [00:00:15] Speaker A: This is Jim Salvucci from the Dylan Taunts. And today we have another episode, an exciting episode of Million Dollar Bash. This roundtable, we're going to take a different approach than usual. Usually we have a topic and we talk about the topic and we kick it around and have a lot of fun with it. Today, I asked each of our guests to come in with a song or two they want to discuss. So I'm going to say each of the guests name and introduce them and ask them to say hello, and then we'll get right down to it. So our first guest is Rockin'rob Reginio. Hey, Rob. [00:00:59] Speaker D: How are you doing, Jim? Very pleased to see everyone and talk to everyone again. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Great to have you. Next up is Ern Callahan. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Hey, Jim. Hi, guys. I'm so glad to be here, and I'm ready to hear everyone's take on their songs. [00:01:14] Speaker A: And next up is Court Carney. [00:01:17] Speaker E: Hey, everyone. How come Rob got rocking? I thought you was all epithets. I was excited to see it's an. [00:01:24] Speaker D: Honorific, Court, not an epithet. [00:01:28] Speaker A: I'll give you one court, you're corny. Court Carney. All right. [00:01:32] Speaker E: Candy corn. I'll tell you what, though, with all these lit people, I need to watch my language. I apologize, bro. [00:01:38] Speaker A: That's right. And then finally we've got Grayleigh Herron. [00:01:44] Speaker C: Hey, gang, good to see you again. Looking forward to it. [00:01:47] Speaker A: All right. And we're expecting, as always. Nina goss. And we're hoping she'll pop in soon. And when she does, we'll get her right into discussion and she never holds back. So this will be great. I've asked everyone to come up with one or two songs, either a song from Bob Dylan that they think is really underrated in some way and give a defense of that, or a song they think is really overrated and maybe defile that song. All right, so, Rob, I'm going to ask you to go first. [00:02:21] Speaker D: I've come to praise, not to bury. I don't know if I want to defile songs. Although, believe me, there are some songs that I can talk about how they rub me the wrong way but I can't quite be as articulate because when a song kind of rubs me the wrong way or gets under my skin or doesn't click with me, there's no accounting for taste. But I can be a little bit more articulate about a song that isn't necessarily underrated in terms of, like it's up there on the set lists all the time, but people don't give it the time of day. It's kind of forgotten. And the song is Nobody Except You from the bootleg series. And the first bootleg series, volume one through three. It's on the second disc. This is, I believe, from 1973 in La. They're doing the sessions with the band for Planet Waves, and it's a love song. Dylan works with the template of the popular love song, that genre. If you think of one of his masterpiece albums, blonde on Blonde, except for Rainy Day Women and Stuck Inside of Mobile, every song, more or less, is basically a kind of love song that he has kind of exploded from the inside out. And I see that happening in nobody except you. And I think that this song exemplifies his ability to take this genre of popular song and imbue it with some sort of, like, really startling poetic intensity. And this poetic intensity jumps out at us in one verse of this song. And therefore it kind of encapsulates for me, Dylan's genius, his ability to kind of take. I mean, you look at the opening verses and they're really banal. They're not great, right? Nothing around here that's sacred except you nothing around here that matters except you you're the one that reaches me you're the one that I admire every time we meet together I feel like I'm on fire. So it sounds kind of like this kind of dog girl, I have to say. I love the melody and the band as they play with their kind of scrupulous, impeccable bluesy artistry. It just is wonderful to hear. But after these kind of doggirl esque verses, right? Nothing here I care to try for got nothing to deliver, die for. And then he's got these two verses, and they kind of bring the whole song together. It jumps out at you, right? There's a hymn I used to hear in the churches all the time make me feel so good inside so peaceful, so sublime now there's nothing that reminds me of that old familiar chime except you okay, it's getting a little bit more interesting. And then you get this. This is where the startling poetic intensity kind of like, jumps out at. You used to run in the cemetery dance and run and sing when I was a child and it never seemed strange now I just pass Mournfully by the place where the bones of life are piled I know something has changed I'm a stranger here and no one sees me except you and that for me redeems the entire song. He finishes the song with everything runs by me like water from a well everybody wants my attention got something to sell except you I'm in love with you he ends the song. And that's what love songs are. They're either I love you or you've betrayed me and I don't love you anymore, or I want you. So he's got this love song template, and then it's like one of those Michelangelo statues that he kind of abandons where you see and I can't help but think of Mississippi walking through the leaves, falling from the trees, feeling like a stranger nobody sees. And you've got that notion in this verse, right? I'm a stranger here and no one sees me. I mean, this is a verse that's really resonant in terms of Dylan's kind of 21st century writing. And I just love the song for that reason. And, yeah, that's my contribution to I don't think it's underrated or overrated. I think it's not rated. No one's really given it the time of day. And to listen to the song, you go along with it. And the band's playing is impeccable and wonderful and beautiful, but the lyrics don't really charge until that one verse where the bones of life are piled. I know something has changed and that's a very simple line, but it cuts like a knife after coming after the imagery that precedes it. And I'm a stranger here. That notion of being a stranger bereft kind of in a present tense that is not like that past tense. Time of carefree, innocence is something that stays in my mind. So that's my kind of contribution. And I can perhaps talk later about a song from the Planet Waves session that I dislike. But, yeah, that's the non rated song, the overlooked song that I think needs more attention. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Hey, nobody set you great pick. I just want to let everybody know that Nina has entered the building. So hey, Nina, how you doing? [00:08:27] Speaker B: All right. [00:08:30] Speaker A: All right. So we're just running through the songs. Any commentary, any rebuttal, any support for Rob? [00:08:37] Speaker C: Rob already started down the path that I was thinking of as I was listening to him remind us of that great verse. The stranger imagery also reminded me of Mississippi, also reminded me of Red River Shore. I'm a stranger in strange land. And that image of picking through the bones, I mean, we see it most vividly in my own version of you, the kind of grave robber imagery, but it also reminded me of Lonely Graveyard of My Mind, another Time Out of Mind reference. And I can't quote it because I don't know it as well, but there's an image of the grave of a child. I think it's in Dreaming of you, one of the outtakes from Time Out of Mind, but was on Telltale Signs and the most recent bootleg. So, yeah, I agree that it's hard to believe he's writing that line in 1973 because it seems so much late 90s or even more recent. [00:09:32] Speaker D: Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you 100%. Grilley. That's why that verse jumps out in the song in general. And then it kind of, like, jumps out in time. It's like he's yet to kind of reach 1973. He's yet to reach the 1997, 2001, that kind of writing. And and so that verse kind of like, is waiting for that time. But, I mean, one of the things that I found out while I was working in the archives is that when he was crafting songs for the John Wesley Harding album, which I'm studying right now and writing about right now, most of the notebooks contain lyrical fragments of love songs in the Nashville skyline vein. And listening to Nobody Except You is like going through the archives of the 67 material where you've got these really banal lyrics about love songs that will make their way onto Nashville skyline and then boom, just fragments of these little that kind of intensity that John Wesley Harding songs have. So there's something about this song that's representative of his working method. [00:10:56] Speaker E: I think we could argue that well, we I don't know, I would planet Waves is a record that gives more to me now than I think it's ever given to me. I think I've returned to that record a lot and it's a record that didn't really hit me when I first heard it. And I think that's one that is really going to grow. The other thing I was going to say is that that second disc of the Bootleg series, spoiler alert, it's coming up again. I think that's one of the most listenable runs of songs that are completely decontextualized. They're taken from their context, but then you have it goes from like, If Not For You, Wallflower, Nobody's, those are great. It's a great listing of songs that sort of flow in their own way, but we can get back to that later. That was a great essay, though, Rob. [00:11:47] Speaker D: Thank you. Yeah. Farewell Angelina is on that. I'm looking at the track list right now. I mean, there's so many great yeah. In preparing for this, I've been re listening to that second disc of the first Bootleg series run, and I agree 100%. [00:12:03] Speaker A: Any other comments about Nobody set you? One of the things I love about that song is the organ playing that sort of circus like circular organ playing that Garth Hudson puts down. And I think it kind of goes with the lyrics until, as you pointed out, that last verse. Right. And all of a sudden there's a weird juxtaposition, almost a counterposition, and it's really tremendous and very powerful. [00:12:35] Speaker D: That's really well put. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. [00:12:39] Speaker A: All right, I'm going to pick on Aaron next. [00:12:42] Speaker B: When are you not picking on me? All right, so when I mentioned half heartedly that I was going to pick Sylvio and you said go for it, and I felt that that was a challenge, and so I did take the challenge and so I'm putting Sylvio in our list. And so I did kind of take Dylan from Philosophy of Modern Song. It's what a song makes you feel about your own life that's important. And so I'll start the very trite two things. One, it's on my running list and as a marathoner, I love the song. And two, it was played at the first show I ever saw and so I have an affection for it. But beyond that, we all know that I have a fascination with the so I find this interesting because of the collaboration with Robert Hunter and people, the biggest complaint there are two big complaints I hear about this song. One is that the lyrics are simple. Well, we can't fault Dylan for that. He chose the song to record it. But I'll talk about the sound in a second. The sound is Dylan, and so I want to talk about that momentarily. And part of that sound, too, is that Jerry Garcia, Bob Weir and Brent Miland are additional vocals on it. And so he has that connection. And the collaborations I find interesting. Dylan clearly likes the song. He's played it 595 times live, pretty consistently. And so we talk about set lists. Also, another interest of mine, we look at where it appears in the set list. And so I kind of look and it's always where he's had sort of a lull heavier songs, and he needs something to revive the energy. So the first time he played it, he played it after Hard Rain and Boots of Spanish Leather, and he went right into Sylvio to kind of add energy to the set. The last time he played it, March 16, 2004, he opened with it, which I feel like that's an interesting rob made a face. Yeah. Rob, your reaction. I found that to be curious, too, and so when we look at the chord structure, it's incredibly simple, but it's almost identical to ISIS, which is not as maligned, and it's more loved. And so I find that to be fascinating. And it's an upbeat song that deals with some of the same themes that Dylan has dealt with. And I think maybe that's why he was drawn to it. And so he's dealing with metaphysical knowledge about things that dead men know. He's talking about honesty. I think the sound of it, too. It sounds like a train to so there's the train trope that runs through the final image, which I thought was my moment of genius. And then I feel like I'm in good company. And we'll see court respond when I say this. Paul Williams also saw this. So when I was writing my notes beforehand, I wrote this down and then I went to some texts, and Paul Williams has the same idea. So the final image of him going down to the valley and sing his song and letting the echo decide if he was right or wrong, it's sort of reminiscent of the end of Hard Rain, which then is interesting that he plays it sort of in a sequence with Hard Rain when he plays it live. And you can see that parallel there. Know, he's reflecting from the mountains for all souls to see it. And then Sylvio, he's kind of looking for some truth that we can't know when we're still living. Okay, so some folks read it autobiographically or biographically, and I find that that's really not an interpretation that interests me. And Dylan is going to back me up again. Philosophy of modern song, the same chapter, knowing the singer's life story doesn't particularly help your understanding of a song. And so I guess those interpretations would satisfy who the speaker is, because if it's Dylan and he's in this lull in the he can't create like he used to, then he's staking his future on a hell of a past and all of those things. And there are some cheeky lines in there. Pay for your ticket and don't complain, which is something I often say to my nephews or to people in general. And so there's something interesting, but it is a dramatic monologue, too, if we're going to go back to the lyrics. He's speaking to Sylvio and there's some theories about who Silvio is, but then I think Dylan's embodying the character and the speaker. So does it matter who Sylvio is? I think it's more important what he's saying, and those themes are still the same. And it fits with that sort of 80s trope of him working through this sort of creative dry space that he has, dry spell that he has that he's trying to create again, trying to figure out. And he's that genius who's struggling. And one thing that I found particularly interesting, again, Paul Williams, was that there's that line about the bowl weevil, which is an allusion to Mississippi bowl weevil blues. So reworking of that line that Robert Hunter does that. Then William says that Dylan perfects starting time out of mind. And so if we're looking at Dylan sort of struggling with his own song creation in the way that he couldn't create as he previously did, and he's trying to work his way through that, and he picks for some reason, he picks Sylvio as a song from Hunter's songbook. Then we see him develop that sort of like you were saying about nobody except you, Rob, with the graveyard, the graveyard image and how he learned how to write later on or perfect. That I think that there's something there that argues know, other than me just liking the song, that I think that there's something there that we can see a connection in Dylan's creative process there How'd I do, Jim? [00:18:38] Speaker A: Great. I was wondering how long we get before we got to down in the Groove. All right. Comments? [00:18:46] Speaker E: Down in the Groove is going to make a comeback. I've been arguing that for a long time. I think down the Groove is completely maligned for wrong reasons. And I think that I'm not saying it's a great record, but I think it's a good record and I think it's an interesting record and I think. [00:19:02] Speaker B: There'S some really not saying it court. [00:19:05] Speaker E: I'm not not saying it williams agree with me. You think it's what I said? [00:19:11] Speaker A: What are the right reasons to malign it, then? [00:19:14] Speaker E: Oh, it's not top tier. It's a compilation of stuff. It doesn't hang together really all that well, but the stuff that's good is great. And I think that it's a very interesting record in terms of how it connects to where he is at the time. No, that was a good take. I like that. [00:19:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I like Sylvio, too. I mean, I like some versions better than others, but I was doing homework on it when writing about because Dylan has played it multiple times in Cincinnati and the first time was in 1988. So his first concert on the Never Ending tour that rolled through town played a really blistering version with GE Smith and the Gang. And so I also wrote about the Paul Williams bit and I can even quote it directly because I've got it on screen in front of me, so I might as well williams, in talking about Dylan's attraction to the song, speculated, quote, he feels liberated by the fact that it's a Dylan song without baggage. He and the band play it as though it were a big hit or a song that made him famous and the audience can feel that and respond happily without knowing what this song is, which allows the singer to lean into it in a way that's different from the other Dylan songs and covers he's playing. And so Dylan likes it. That's reason enough. The fans apparently often respond very positively to it, so there's more reason to keep playing it. And that resonates so well with the lyrics that you quoted, Aaron. Let the Echo decide if I'm right or wrong. The Echo was saying they dig it, so I'll keep playing. [00:20:49] Speaker D: Is I have to say I really love the connection, Aaron, you made between that. Let the Echo decide if I was right or wrong with the end of Hard Rain and you did a really fantastic job of thematizing. Or saying that the theme of the song is this kind of search for creative revivification. I have to admit, though, that the sound I mean, if there is a song that I skip when I'm listening to Bootlegs, it is Sylvio. When I hear those opening licks, I press the fast forward button. [00:21:27] Speaker B: I forgive you. [00:21:31] Speaker D: And like I said at the know, it's very hard for me to articulate why I don't like something in terms of music. The music of the song is and I like I mean, it's very good defense in talking about the chord structure being similar to ISIS. So you've kind of boxed me in a corner there where I can't quite you know, the chord structure here is rather simplistic and plotting, but so is ISIS. But there's something about the I don't know, it just strikes me as this kind of banal rocker and I think that I can't quite match the heights of your defense here in my demure I'm demuring here to continue. I just don't like the song. [00:22:28] Speaker B: That's fair. Try running to it, you might like it more. [00:22:31] Speaker D: Oh, I don't think that would happen. I think I would fall flat on the ground and have a heart attack and die to the strains of Sylvio. That's not a way to go out. [00:22:41] Speaker E: Have you tried doing jumping jacks to that's what cardio will help you with Sylvio. What can we do? I think isn't it interesting? He didn't write the words and so his connection to that's interesting, I think. And we're leading we're not talking about this today, but his current tour, that's replete with covers. There's something there where you can dig in in a different know. I don't know. I'm going to re listen to Sylvio, but I won't be running. I'm not gonna do that in the pool. I'm gonna put my tape cassette deck walkman on as I do lapse in the pool and see how long that lasts. Yeah, I liked it, though. That was a good essay, Aaron. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Court, you want to give us one? [00:23:25] Speaker E: I appreciate this so much and I'm hoping that I can get the ire of rob on this one. I was thinking, I'll tell you what, my very first thought when you sent this out was a song that I'm not going to talk about, but my very first thought was dark eyes. That's one that kind of came up immediately. I was like, well, that's interesting. Maybe I'll talk about dark eyes. I do like dark eyes. And then I was kind of going down, are we going to do something cheeky? Is this going to be an hour and a half on mean? Is this where we're going to go with this? And I think Joey is also too often maligned. I don't really know why people hate on Joey so much. But at any rate, I'm going to and maybe I'll get rob's permission on this one. The second disc of the original bootleg series and I think the song that really speaks to me that I don't know if it's necessarily underrated, I think that's the hard part about this is that it's not really underrated necessarily, but I don't think it's discussed as much. And that is mama, you've been on my mind. And I think that this song for me was a gateway. So if we want to talk about it from the Aaron perspective of personal relationship, bootleg series is very important to me. I had known Dylan bootleg comes out when I'm in high school and I had known Dylan I was aware of Dylan's stuff. But bootleg was kind of like the oh, and I loved a lot of the material on there without really getting the context of it. But mama, you've been on my mind is one that I just gravitated toward. I thought this is a song that you don't hear very often. Obviously, it wasn't something that I had known and it starts in such mysterious ways. And the other context of this, I think this goes into one of those songs that is like it's a love song ish which are the best kind. But it's also one of those songs, I think. And I know, we could argue against this, but it connects to me in a way to a song that I could devote a lot of energy and time to explaining how I don't really get it, but I love every moment of it. And that is boots of Spanish leather. I think that song is a classic case of I love everything about it. And what does it mean? I could tell you very contradictory things about it. I could tell you exactly what it means. I can tell you it doesn't mean that at all. And it kind of reminds me of Walk Away, Renee which is another one of those songs which I could dedicate my life to. And if you ask me what it's about, it's like, it's the best song on the whole fucking planet. What's it about? I don't know. Sign points both ways. Who are you to ask anyway? So, mama, you've been on my mind this idea of and I didn't get the lyrics for a long time. I wasn't ever really aware of what it meant. I didn't know if I read them correctly or thought about them correctly. But the sun cut flat that is like, okay, that's line one for a. [00:26:20] Speaker C: Song that you're not going to really put on anything. [00:26:23] Speaker E: Where are we going with this? But I think it's a really lovely song and I think it's a song that he's mining certainly in that period, 63, 64, really up until 66, maybe, because I think there's another interesting parallel here to another song on that, which is She's Your Lover Now, where he's able to say layer, layer, layer, layer, layer. And it's sort of like a mask where he's able to push himself away. Where it's like, I'm not saying that I feel this way. I'm saying I feel all these kind of things, but maybe I do. Where's that whole thing where he's like I'm not pleading or saying I can't forget. I do not walk the floor bow down and bent but yet you've been on my mind I love that. I love everything about it. I think it's a beautiful song that is deceptively simple, that is about love in the broadest of things, in the broadest of ways, which doesn't really cohere, probably in some ways, then it's like she's gone. When you wake up in the morning look inside your mirror you know I. [00:27:25] Speaker C: Will be next to you you know. [00:27:26] Speaker E: I will be near also, I really like his voice. It's a very interesting kind of dialect ish thing. He's playing with the real nasal he's leaning into that real nasal element. I just love it. And I think it's also interesting going back to Aaron's take on set list, he doesn't play it that much, but he plays it at these weird times. It comes back in during self portrait. Like, he does a recording with George Harrison or he's playing with George Harrison around that time. There's like this moment in the early 70s when he's kind of revisiting his past. That song pops up. It pops up again in the 90s, which I think is a very important touring period. I just looked that up. He plays it one time as a throwaway in 2009. That's the most recent time. I'm not going to tell you. I have a long history of knowing all of the versions of it. I love the version that I know the best and I love that version in a way that seems very heartfelt and engaged in a way that I just don't think you see very often with him. I also think it's a song. I'll edit that comment. I redact my next point as a throwaway as a bonus track for you, Jim. I'll say this most underrated song that is rated highly, I would argue, and it's one I go back to more than I want to discuss is Mr Tambourine Man. Wait for it. The 66 version, I think, is a master class in harmonica. I think that's the closest he comes to being just a jazz musician in his breathing, in his ability to take harmonica to the I am a very strong proponent of the harmonica in all ways, but I have a very specific version of that and that is the Neil Young Bob Dylan version of harmonica playing. If it's too sweet and too pretty and too good, I find it terrible. It's the most terrible sound I've ever heard in my life. But you play it like those two people play it, and it is the best, most life affirming sound ever. And Mr Tambourine Man in 66, when he starts doing that real kind of circular drone, almost, that he's getting with it, I think is amazing. And I think that acoustic disc always gets the sort shift because of what comes later. And I think that there's a lot of gold there that he's playing with. Anyway, I've said too much, but now for an hour on Dark Eyes, so Empire burlesque. I'm kidding. All right. Thank you. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Wow. Court, it's interesting because I wasn't planning on interjecting myself into this, but if I had, the song I would have chosen was Mama, You've Been On My Mind for much the same reason you did. Very similar take on it. I think lyrically, it's just stupendous. I've heard people denigrate that first line. What does it mean? The sun cut flat, it's the sunset in late summer. Go stand outside. But it's just a tremendous song. If you even look at the lyrics on the website, the lines, they're very short in the first verse and then they lengthen toward the middle and then they start to shorten again and yet the tune stays the same. His singing in that is incredible. And then I'm not a big fan of the Rolling Thunder review version. I love the fact he's dueting with Joan Baez and I think they'd sing it tremendously. I'm just not a big fan of that sort of countryfied version of it. I think it loses its sweetness, but incredible song and uncannily. If I had to choose a song that I think is overrated and you're all going to hate me for this, it's Mr. Tambourine. Except for the 66 version because of the harmonica. It is just an amazing what I. [00:31:28] Speaker E: Was going to just noticing, though, is that the opening line of that the Color of the sun, because it's not just the sun cup flat. The color of the sun cup flat, but also the opening line of Dark Eyes is midnight moon is on the riverside. So maybe there is some of the parallel. To me, Dark Eyes is a rewriting of this in a way. I don't think that's true. [00:31:47] Speaker A: You're desperate to make that connection. Any other takes on Mama. You've been on my mind. [00:31:53] Speaker D: I like the Rolling Thunder version. I like the country fried version and the intensity and power that there's this kind of wonderful competitiveness between Baez and Dylan when they're singing it. Especially when you get to that last verse. When you wake up in the morning, baby, look inside your mirror. No, I won't be next to you. No, I won't be near. Yeah, I'll just be and everything I love that, but I think that this is a really great song to pick. I like the self referentiality. This has been said by many critics, so I'm not really saying anything new. The way that it pairs the simple lyrics. Mama, you've been on my mind with the kind of overwrought some people say overwrought, but not really the color of the sun cut flat and covering the crosses I'm standing at maybe something like the weather or that. But Mama, you've been on my mom. That kind of movement from kind of forcing this kind of high poetic imagery and then just saying but I just have to say, you've been on my the earnestness of that the earnestness coming through is really great, but it's also. [00:33:09] Speaker E: This like, almost a fake out because it's like, here's this really gorgeous line. Or maybe it's just the weather, right? It's like this real playful yes, he knows his power, but then he's like, oh, maybe it's this, but still it's the most obvious stuff. But no part of that song is obvious. And if I listen to that particular version, I'm not going to get into the Rolling Thunder version. But if you go into that particular version right now, that is a magical sort of piece of music that I don't think is common for him, maybe, but it's not common outside of him and it's not certainly something you hear all the time. [00:33:46] Speaker B: I think what you were saying, Court, and Rob, too, it reminds me of most of the time and how he's saying I don't even know most of the time, he sort of undercuts his observations with all these things are happening but Mama, you've been on my mind and it's almost the exact opposite of know. I don't even notice she's gone most of the it's it's an interesting device that he seems to use later on in that song. [00:34:11] Speaker D: And what's brilliant about that, Aaron, is that he's able to imbue these kind know, unpoetic idioms like, you've been out of my mind most of the time. And I mean, the weight that comes through in those lines, I know something has changed. It's like from my pick, nobody except you. Right? I know something has changed. I mean, it's just like because what comes before it's like it cuts you. Absolutely. [00:34:42] Speaker E: Also, mama is a really tough word, and it doesn't come across badly here. It comes across kind of sweetly or engagingly. It doesn't come across as like, oh, is this a 60s song that we're not going to like the end of this verse? I don't know. There's something there to that. But I think it's very touching the way it's sung here. I think it works in a way, and I think there is a way, right, where that gender gets flipped in some cover versions. And I don't know if that is it doesn't work very well for me. I think there's a way to flip gender in songs very well, but this particular one I don't think works. [00:35:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think Joan Bias sings Daddy, you've been on Daddy, which isn't quite the same thing. And then I don't know if you ever heard the Betty LeVette version from a few years ago on her album, which I think has some really good stuff on it and some really abysmal stuff. And I don't think she pulls this one off. She alters the lyrics and she makes it about her own mother, especially the last verse. And I think the last verse is impeccable, and she alters the last verse and it's almost unforgivable. She kind of ruins this song and also takes out the complexity of it, of the relationship. The subtlety is just gone. [00:36:00] Speaker C: I also love every time Bob Dylan sings the word mirror and makes it a one syllable word. And I've heard other people say this, too, so it's not just my imagination, but one of my favorite lines always from Visions of Joanna was what I thought for years. He said, she's delicate. Seems like vermeer. I thought it was a painting reference. And then it's like, oh, it's just seems like Vermeer. What's that mean? That's not nearly as good as what I had misheard the lyric as, but as you were comparing it to most of the time. I mean, that's a very similar dynamic in that songwriter. You're thinking about someone that you really don't want to be thinking about, you probably shouldn't be thinking about, and yet that person visions of that person haunts your mind. Mama, you've been on my mind and it may even be the same mama if you want know, interject. Too much autobiographical reading there, Joan Baez, but yeah, maybe not a coincidental connection there with that two mere references. [00:37:06] Speaker E: I think Vermeer has got to be it, right? I thought it was Vermeer forever. [00:37:11] Speaker D: And we're in a museum. We're in a museum in visions. Right. And there are the Mona Lisa suggestion there, right? [00:37:21] Speaker A: So, yeah, sure. [00:37:23] Speaker D: I mean, I heard vermeer, too. Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker A: I always heard vermeer or vermeer. [00:37:29] Speaker B: I always heard vermeer. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Vermeer. [00:37:33] Speaker E: I think the Vermeers have it. [00:37:35] Speaker C: It's a very cold take, apparently. [00:37:40] Speaker A: All right, so we're ready to move on to Grayley's Pick. [00:37:45] Speaker C: So I didn't write any of this out, so I hope it sounds coherent. But you know who did write it out? Bob Dylan. My underrated work by Dylan is New Morning, the album New Morning. Now, actually. I don't think it's very underrated by most of us as fans. I mean, even if we wouldn't put it on the tip top shelf, no one would put it on the bottom shelf. I mean, it's a good album, and you might even say it's better than good. But the person who really kind of low rates it is Bob Dylan, which makes it perverse out of all the things he could have written about in Chronicles, he chooses to devote a chapter in part to the making of New Morning. But then most of what he has to say about it is kind of damning with faint praise. Right. My favorite passage, and I have it here in front of me, so I'll just quote it. Is he's talking about listening to these songs during the recording sessions? And he says, quote, my reputation was firm in hand. At least these songs wouldn't make any gory headlines. Message songs. [00:39:00] Speaker E: There weren't any. [00:39:01] Speaker C: Anybody listening for them would have to be disappointed. As if I was going to make a career out of that anyway. Regardless, you could still fill the anticipation in the air. When will the old hymn be back? When will the door burst open and the goose appears? Not today. I felt like these songs could blow away in cigar smoke, which suited me fine. That my records were still selling surprise even me. Maybe there were good songs in the grooves and maybe there weren't. Who knows? But they weren't the kind where you hear an awful roaring in your head. I knew what those kinds of songs were like, and these weren't them. It's not like I hadn't any talent. I just wasn't feeling the full force of the wind. No stellar explosions. I was leaning against the console and listening to one of the playbacks. It sounded okay. He's, by his own admission, saying that these are kind of forgettable throwaway songs. I disagree with him. I think he's more than just merely talented. I think that's a really strong album. But it's not just that he disses it in prose there. I just did a little bit of homework right before the recording. There are twelve songs on New Morning, eight of them he's never played live, not a single time. He's played New Morning 79 times. If not for you 89 times. If dogs run Free 104 times and The Man and Me 155 times. But zero live recordings for eight of the twelve songs, including the one that I thought I would focus most specifically on, which is Sign on the Window. I Love sign on the window. It came across my mental radar a couple of times last week. One, I was teaching it in class, we got up to the New Morning section and so we read that in class and listened to the album. But then last Sunday, I also saw Girl from the North Country and Connor McPherson uses that as the first song on the album, which makes sense or not on the album, in the musical, which makes sense because he sets the musical in an inn, right, a hotel. And so that imagery of a Sign on the window fits perfectly with the poetic conceit that Dylan is using in the lyrics. I just pulled them up on screen, so I didn't misquote them. But I love this imagery. At the beginning of the song, sign on the window says Lonely. Sign on the door said no company allowed. Sign on the street says you don't own me. Sign on the porch says Three the Crowd. Sign on the porch says Three is a crowd. So I love this idea of taking a familiar image, a sign on a window that you would think open or closed vacancy, no vacancy, and using it as an emotional marker for the relative openness or closeness of the singer's heart. Right. Of letting people in or shutting people out. And it starts off with shutting people out. The sign says lonely. The sign says no company allowed. But then apparently he's let someone in, but only partway in like one Step Across the Threshold. You don't own me. So, okay, we're in a relationship, but I'm not your possession, you don't control me. Kind of the vibe that he talks about is your love in vain, right where I must have solitude. You get part of me, but not all of me. But then when he goes to Three the Crowd, that sounds more like wrapping your arms around that person and we are fully together now and everybody else can get lost. Three is a crowd, and I gather I mean, first I should say that what I love, especially about the song, is the sound I love bob Zillow's piano Play he clearly had a cold during the recording of New Morning. You can hear how stopped up his sinuses are on The Man and Me. And this seems to be later in the trajectory of the cold when he's playing the song, because the post nasal drift, a raspy, scratchy voice, really comes through, especially when he's trying to hit notes he can't quite hold, like in The Bridge, when he talks about or when he sings Hope that it Don't Sleep. And he can't quite hold his voice on that. But I love that. I mean, it fits the song so well. So piano playing is cracker and the voice, I think, is really good. And even when it's bad, it's good. But then the verses seem to be examples, I guess, of one side of the sign or the other. There's the verse. Her and her boyfriend went to California her and her boyfriend done changed their tomb my best friend said now didn't I warn you bright and girls are like the moon brighton girls are like the moon which I think means changeable. And that it's, apparently about a couple that went together but then they didn't stay together. Not autobiographical, I don't think. I mean, there's California reference, but know that doesn't seem to add up in any way. But the most interesting, I guess, in relation to all this is the last verse. Build me a cabin in Utah marry me a wife catch rainbow trout have a bunch of kids who call me PA that must be what it's all about that must be what it's all about. Now there again, it's fictionalized somewhat, because Utah I don't know of any Utah connections, right? But the idea of getting married, having kids, settling down this is the domestic era dylan, that he's writing about in New Chronicles that he's singing about in New Morning. And it seems relatively happy most of the time. Most of the time. But there's something about that phrasing at the end, right? He doesn't say, Brother, that's what it's all about. Or let me tell you, that's what it's all about now I can see that's what it's all about. He says, that must be what it's all about. As if he's trying to convince someone himself, right? That this should be happiness, right? This should be fully satisfied. And I mean, I'm not the first person to notice that maybe there are some little signs of shadows that grow deeper and darker and longer in later songs that are maybe in part a reflection of Dylan's state of mind and his growing disillusionment with domestic life and the urge to follow his vocation back out onto the road and playing live music to the people. And I think that may be partly what we're seeing an early glimpse of here. But what's interesting to me, too, is that there could be other sources of tension within the family, right? And I'm not just talking about Bob Dylan. But I'm not talking about Bob Dylan. Because, man, if three is a crowd, what's seven? What is a couple and five kids running around the house? There's a sort of sense that three is a crowd. And if other people can be intrusive, it's not necessarily just the media and people clattering across your roof. The freeloaders who are trespassing. It could be other. And I'm also thinking there of the very next song on New Morning which is One More Weekend, which has the verse we'll fly the night away hang out the whole next day things will be okay you wait and see we'll go someplace unknown leave all the children home honey, why not go alone, just you and me. And so I think that maybe there's a sense of the challenges from within and without to maintaining a relationship. And sometimes they're internal challenges that you're not sufficiently open to let someone all the way in. Sometimes they're external challenges like the obsessive fans and intrusive media. But sometimes it can be within the house itself where the tensions lie. And I think it's very subtle and maybe I'm reading way too much into this song but it makes a seemingly simple song that just sounds nice and that's good enough. A more complex and interesting song to me the more I think about it and listen to it and listen to it in relation to some of the other songs on the app, that's what I got. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Well, Granny, I'm glad you didn't write that down. [00:48:03] Speaker C: I did read the lyrics off the screen there, so I didn't plug them up. But, no, I didn't otherwise write it down, though. Now, I'm tempted to maybe scribble some of this afterwards. But anyway all right. [00:48:16] Speaker A: Any commentary? Sign on the window. [00:48:19] Speaker D: I like the way, Grayley, that you figure in your reading of the song that it's really an examination of the strains and struggles of domesticity and a song that and to go back to what Court said about the Bootleg series one through three I can remember getting as a gift biograph. And so that was when I was young and again, I listened to that as albums like disc One, disc Two, Disc know. And one of the songs that always stood out to me from that very early my first kind of deep dive into Dylan is Time Passes Slowly, which I absolutely love. I think it's one of the vocal performances. Just the piano, again, is a different kind of piano than the delicacy of Sign on the Window. But his piano playing is top notch in Time Passes Slowly. And his singing is great, especially the bridge where he ends up ain't no reason to go anywhere, right? Which I don't quite believe him in the next verse when he says, time passes slowly up here in the daylight we stare straight ahead and try so hard to stay right. And that's, I think, the struggle and strain of domesticity. And there's a weird temporality in Time Passes Slowly too, where he has in the second verse, that kind of once I had a sweetheart she was fine and good looking so is this a song about being alone as time passes slowly or is this about being with your family and time passing slowly? Is that a good thing or a bad thing, the song kind of hovers. I know I'm not talking about the song, you were talking about Grayley, but I'm talking about New Morning. And so I really appreciated that really fine reading and I like the way that you prefaced it with his kind of shrugging it off as like these were songs that were not written on the road, that were not performed a lot, that were not invested with that much kind of sparkling poeticism or whatever. And it's kind of forgettable. And in a lot of the at least among fans and others, it's kind of like a fallow period when Dylan marries and tries to settle down. But so many of his songs are about children, the struggles and strains of keeping a long term relationship together. I would say that your defense of that song or elevation of it really kind of suggests that domesticity is a kind of muse for Dylan. The idea of it and the actual lived experience of it, but also too. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Kind of speak to, like, the idea that I've been playing with this, that songs seem sort of flat or mundane or he thinks they are. Well, that's what day to day domestic life is. It's sort of a reflection of who he is and where he is at that moment. And we juxtapose that, of course it's earlier, but what he's doing when he's recording the Basement tapes and he's in a playground with his friends where he leaves that domestic sphere to go to Big Pink and record. And even Garth Hudson says in a 2014 interview that they tried to record at Dylan's, but it was Dylan's house and they couldn't do it because the vibe wasn't there. And so he had to remove himself from that domestic setting to be able to have that sound of the recording. And I think you're onto something there, so please do write that down. [00:52:12] Speaker E: Are we sure Rainbow Trout is in a metaphor? Where are our Dylanologists on this? I love new morning. I love the sound of it. I love everything about it. And I think it's also really great because from 69 to 71, that period is so fucking great. And he releases Self Portrait and New Morning, like five months apart or four months apart or something. Stupid Self Portrait, which is wonderful, but it also goes to the Bootleg series, another Self Portrait, which is so great and that circling around that period. So many great songs, so many great sounds. It just sounds great. And to put my yarn against the wall, biograph super important Bootleg series. So Biograph is 85, right? Bootleg series 91. Midpoint down in the groove What I'm trying to tell you, everybody, is that down in the Groove is the linchpin of historical memorization and memory going back into his roots. I say that sarcastically, but I also would fight it. I think it's important. I think it's interesting. Anyway, yeah, this is the great take. And I love the COVID too. We don't talk about that cover too much. It's a very sort of here it is. This is me. It's Bob, but it's like Tan and whatever. That sort of not sepia quiet, but that cool kind of thing that goes into Rob's world of John Wesley Harding. But I think here it is. I also wonder you wonder, too, if Lebowski hadn't picked up The Man in Me. I wonder if that record would even have been remembered hardly at all now. I don't know. Or this man in me. Does he start playing it live afterward? Is he playing Manami a lot before that? And then he kind of brings it I don't have an answer for that, but I'm wondering, like Lebowski makes that song such a great visual thing that brings people to that song again. And it's also a song at the time that people really were not as familiar with. I wonder if the alternate history of no Lebowski, no Flea acting career where are we in 2023? Is that the moth wing, butterfly wing that shifts us in a different trajectory? I'm not sure. That was great. [00:54:41] Speaker C: It feels like new morning. I mean, now Dylan focuses almost entirely on rough and rowdy waves and more power to him because having just recently seen him in concert, he plays the hell out of those songs and he reinvents them night after night. And his piano playing is as good as it's ever been and his voice is in top form. But where I started down this path is since piano is his primary instrument now, new Morning gives you such great material to work with. Sign on the Window being an excellent example. So I don't know why eight of those ten tracks have never been played live. Well, I could probably guess why some of them haven't been, but hell, if you can play If Dogs Run Free 104 times, some of these songs could use an airing or two in public. [00:55:34] Speaker A: I'm trying to look up man and Me and I'm having trouble with the website, but I think I pulled it up here. And the question was, he recorded performed it 155 times and it looks like it really took off. Most of those times were in the early ninety s ninety one. He played it a ton, 89. Okay, so he played it early on. So that was pre Big Lebowski, to answer your question. So that was already pretty much a perennial song on his he knew maybe. [00:56:08] Speaker E: That'S why T Bone certainly knew. It all connects. [00:56:12] Speaker A: T Bone and down in the Groove and it all connects, you're going to. [00:56:16] Speaker E: Prove through Numerology in 1988. [00:56:20] Speaker C: I'm suddenly thinking about that line, Three is a Crowd and wondering if I should then rethink my interpretation of the song Three Angels. [00:56:29] Speaker A: If three is a crowd, it's a crowd of angels. [00:56:33] Speaker B: Also, that bit that you read from Chronicles grayley. I'm surprised Court didn't jump on or sink into the groove line that you said, because I was like, oh, is he down in the groove there? I mean, my brain went there. I'm sure courts did, too. [00:56:49] Speaker E: My brain doesn't leave that on the groove. I wake up every morning to that recording and then every evening I decompress with that recording. Can you imagine? I mean, you're just trying to make a little bit of something, say that Ricker means a little bit more than it should. [00:57:05] Speaker C: I'm not like that. [00:57:06] Speaker A: I have to admit. My alarm is set. So I wake up to new morning every day, which is appropriate. [00:57:13] Speaker E: That is the most beautiful sentiment I think I've ever heard you express. I hope that's true. [00:57:17] Speaker A: That's why it's hard for me to. [00:57:18] Speaker E: Admit that is the most tender hearted. [00:57:21] Speaker C: Beautiful, spirited it's actually Morning Has Broken by Kat Stevens. He just won't admit that's. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Right. All right, well, this has been great. I want to wrap this up. Unfortunately for those of you who are listening to hear Nina's voice and her incredible wisdom and insight, she had technical problems and just couldn't get into the group today. So we'll pick her up next time and we'll get her take on whatever we're talking about next. I do know that Ernie and I have been plotting we're planning on doing a Christmas special in December. I can't imagine what we're going to talk about. What could we possibly talk about? And we'll plan for that, but hopefully we'll sneak another one into November as well. So thank you, everyone. Thank you, Rob, Aaron, Court Grayley and Nina, wherever you are, we wish you to come back soon and join us on Million Dollar Bash on the Dylan Taunts. Thank you, everyone, and take care. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Thanks. Bye, Tim. [00:58:31] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Dylan Tons podcast. Be sure to subscribe to have the Dillon Taunts sent directly to your inbox and share the Dillon Taunts on social media.