[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is a part of the FM Podcast Network, the home of great music podcasts. Visit
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You are listening to the Dylan Taunts podcast.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Welcome to another segment of what is it about Bob Dylan? I am with Laura Tensher, grateful that she has taken time out of her busy schedule to sit and talk with me. Laura is the creator of Definitely Dylan, and if you don't know that, then you have been under a rock for the past few years. But it is a podcast about Bob Dylan's work and creative process. She earned her Ma in Comparative Literary Studies from Goldsmith's University in London and dropped out of her PhD on Franz Kafka and language philosophy. She has a chapter on Dylan giving himself to the Muse and Dylan at 80. A great chapter. Everyone should read it. And has presented on Dylan at numerous conferences. She serves on the boards of the Dylan Institute or the Institute of Bob Dylan Studies in Tulsa, Oklahoma, as well as the Dylan Review.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Welcome, Laura.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you for the lovely introduction. I'm very pleased to be here.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: I was surprised that, you know, get all of your accomplishments in just a few sentences, but that gives us more time to chat. So we'll start with the first question. What is it about Bob Dylan?
[00:01:29] Speaker C: This is such a huge question to begin with.
I have been following the podcast, so I have been listening to other people answering the question. And every time it inspires so many thoughts. And I mean, I don't know if you feel like that with podcasts, but I so often want to jump into the conversation and join in some capacity. Maybe that's why I have a podcast.
And I hope that some of what I do kind of engenders the same kind of response from people, hopefully. But yeah. What is it about Bob Dylan?
[00:02:08] Speaker A: I think to me to me he.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: Is an artist who has a certain aura that I just feel really drawn to.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: And I think it's something that and.
[00:02:20] Speaker C: I really hope that people will know what I'm getting at with this.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: But to me, there's something mystical about.
[00:02:27] Speaker C: What he does and his appeal that I'm picking up on. And I think that he himself has recognized that because he's spoken about feeling called to this work, feeling a metaphysical dimension to what he does. He talks about the deal that he's made with the Chief Commander.
And I think that this is something.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: That kind of radiates in his work.
[00:02:55] Speaker C: And to me, there's a spiritual component to all great art. And in essence, I think what I.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Keep coming back to in how I.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Feel about art, how I think about art and how I write about it is to me, art is really about fostering empathy, and it's about sharing your.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Unique view on life, the world and hoping that this gives people something to.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Relate to, to resonate with and to disagree with. This is something that I really loved about the philosophy of modern song, because I think that's really what popped it in, is also writing about this role of art to be a common ground via which we can communicate and find common ground or find something to disagree about.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: To me, Bob Dylan is just an artist that speaks to me on all.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: These levels and touches on a lot of themes that I find really just fascinating.
And then also, I admire his work ethic, I admire his determination.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: And I.
[00:04:14] Speaker C: Find it really inspiring to see an artist who has such a clear vision that he has been following for decades.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Now and not deviating from it, too.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:26] Speaker C: But at the same time, also never shying away from changing his mind.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: And I think what's so unique, really with an artist like Dylan?
I'm not saying that he is the only artist who we have been able to follow through the decades, but he.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Is one of the few artists that.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: Has been active for six plus decades now with a steady output, with work that has remained relevant. Has remained it never felt like he had fully checked out, even in the 80s. Which relates to the panel that you were doing in Tulsa. But maybe he didn't have quite the connection to the muse that he had in other decades. But you can tell he was still committed to what he was doing and he was still searching. And I think it's incredible to have such documentation of a life, of an.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Artistic life dedicated to the creative process.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: And to see it go from a young man who is hungry for experiences through someone settling down, starting a family, and then reevaluating his life and finding out, well, actually, this maybe isn't the end of life. There's a lot more spiritually to be discovered.
There's a purpose to be sought and to just have that documentation up to now. Him being an aging artist and still working on processing that and processing what it's like to be old and what that means and how that relates to.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: What he's so I find that also.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: Just really absolutely fascinating to have an artist's life just laid out like that.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Thank you. I love that answer. So what is your Bob Dylan origin story? And I think I've heard this, but share it with all of us.
[00:06:29] Speaker C: Yeah. My origin story is that I fell in love with the song Every Grain of sand because my music teacher at the time gave me a cassette copy of Shot of Love because he sometimes asked me to sing in church because that was one of the few places.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Where you could sing.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: In Switzerland. Rural Switzerland, where I grew up. And he basically gave me a cassette of Shot of Love and said, you should listen to that last song, Every Grain of sand. I bet you didn't think harmonica could sound like that and I put it on and I was completely drawn in.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: The thing is, I would love to.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Say that I immediately recognized all the things that Make Pop Didn't Special that I just spoke about. I would love to say that it was the lyrics that drew me in, but the fact is I was still learning English at the time and I'm.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Sure that I didn't understand half of.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: What he was singing.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: But I actually think that there is.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: Something quite sweet about that because that also highlights that Bob Dylan's draw is so much more than just the lyrics.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Because obviously I was drawn to something.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: I was drawn to the voice, I was drawn to the phrasing. And I don't know the mood of the song, which to this day is.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: One of my favorites.
And I do think that looking back.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: I feel like there's something to be.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Said about the power of music that.
[00:08:09] Speaker C: Transcends language that captured me before I even understood the lyrics. And at the same time, this song.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Is also one that has grown in meaning alongside my own life.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: As I get older, I keep seeing different sides to the song. I keep recognizing different aspects and the.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Lyrics go ahead, I'm sorry.
[00:08:38] Speaker C: No, I'm just saying now that I.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Also once I understood the lyrics almost.
[00:08:45] Speaker C: On a language level, that's one thing. But obviously as you get older, you relate to the lyrics differently as you start to understand them with more life experience.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: I think, too, that he does that and he gives that he allows us the space to do that as fans.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: That all of us who do this are obsessors.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: And so we are mostly lifelong fans. But the twelve year old me that was listening to Bob Dylan is much different than the 49 year old me who is listening to Bob Dylan. And I have different experiences. And so the song has grown. That conversation that I'm having with the music, the lyrics, the performance, the phrasing is changing. And I think that's kind of what you are alluding to. But even your presentation on Mondo scripto, which I loved in Tulsa, I loved your philosophy of modern song, but that, I think, opens up the idea that he is having different experiences and reengaging his work.
I told you there would be different and you even said they're going to go in different directions. But will you talk to us a little bit about that? Because I think that that speaks to what you were just saying and how you think he's revisiting his work.
[00:10:01] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: I think performance is so crucial to.
[00:10:08] Speaker C: Who Bob Dylan is as an artist.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: And I think it's also related to.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: Something we said earlier, because I think it's also in performance that we see.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: And hear evidence of the physical Bob.
[00:10:26] Speaker C: Dylan in his aging body, in his changing body, the changing voice.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: And I think in a know his.
[00:10:36] Speaker C: Writing is a counterpoint to that, one.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Would think, as something that stands and doesn't change.
[00:10:44] Speaker C: But then Bob Dyden is obviously revisiting his songs and reworking them.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: And I had always assumed that it.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: Was through performance that he would be moved to rework his songs because maybe he was singing it in rehearsal and then realized, actually, I want to change this line that this reworking or reevaluation of his lyrics would be tied to performance. But then Mondo scripto proves this assumption wrong. And I also want to say, I mean, I am super interested in Mondo scripto. And for maybe those people who don't know, this is a series of Bob Duran's visual art where he has handwritten copies of his lyrics and they are juxtaposed or presented alongside graphite drawings. And every drawing illustrates a specific image from the lyrics.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: And there are, I think, around, like.
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Vaguely around 60 songs, some in more than one iteration. And a few of them have rewritten lyrics and some of them he has performed live, but a lot of them he hasn't performed live. So this has just really made me think about this process of rewriting the lyrics and the way in which that itself constitutes a creative act. Obviously, in Mondo scripto, it's interesting because this creative act is one that we really only get to experience on the page when we look at these specific artworks. That's what I find really interesting.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: And also the fact that this leaves.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Something to the imagination in the sense.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: That because they only appear in writing.
[00:12:27] Speaker C: We are left to imagine what they might sound like if they were performed. Because presumably Bob Dylan will never perform the four different rewritten versions of Shelter from the Storm.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: So those will only appear in writing.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: So that's what I find really interesting.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: We're having this conversation, I think, in the greater Dylan verse, as Nina Goss calls it. And she told me I need to get out more because I told her I quote her a lot.
But about what happens when he stops touring and we have that finite cap on his performance life, that creative life. And I'm wondering I don't think it's the end of his creativity. So maybe you can speak to that because you've just said something so beautiful about Mondo scripto and that creative process.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: Well, I think that's a really interesting question, one that I have actually thought.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: About because this is all obviously just a guess.
And I could also see it being.
[00:13:29] Speaker C: That Bob Dylan will literally not stop touring until infinity, right?
But I could see a few things.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Happening and one of them I was.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Thinking about when I was listening to Shadow Kingdom the other day where I.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Thought maybe he could just record one.
[00:13:51] Speaker C: Off performances of songs instead of going out and recording them and just recording moments in time. Because that's, in my opinion, what draws him to performance. This idea to capture a moment in time in performance. So I don't know, maybe if for some reason he is not able tour anymore but he doesn't want to give up the performance element, maybe the recording.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Studio could present a new opportunity or.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: He'Ll give us another virtual conference or concert that is a concert and not a recording. That would be know I was just talking to David this morning about we were both at the DC show and one of my favorite moments from that show. I turned my head for a moment when he came out and he sat on the amp for Melancholy Mood. And you were much closer than I was. But I had a moment of panic because I thought something was wrong with him, something had happened to him that he sat down and I asked Jim Salvucci first I couldn't find him on the stage. I said, where did Dylan go? And then I found him, I said, Is he okay? But then he had that beautiful performance of Melancholy Mood. And I don't know if you remember it the same way, but I was just like you're saying, being in the moment with Dylan and sharing that was really, for some reason, a moment fraught with anxiety, but also incredibly special because know, once I realized he was okay, the performance was just beautiful.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: I do remember that moment, and I particularly remember because that was the last show of the first leg of the Rough and Rowdy Ways tour. And in the weeks leading up to that, throughout the tour, people had been talking about his physical appearance and that sometimes he didn't appear steady on his feet, that he had to hold on to things. That was before we learned that he had vertigo. Maybe that played a role.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: I forgot about the vertigo.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker C: And in DC, he came out to.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Center stage during almost every song.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Right. He was performing directly to the audience, which really made it one of the most special shows that I've seen just because it felt so like he was in communion with the audience. And that specific moment during Melancholy Mood I found special because to me it.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Seemed like he was taking a step back to let the band shine for a moment.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: But then also I remember him sitting.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Down on the amp and I had.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: This moment where I thought, he's 80 years old, is someone going to help him up? This was a very low amp, but he just jumped back up and walked center stage and started singing. And I thought, this man is actually in really good shape because I know people a lot younger who would have had trouble getting up from such a low seat.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: And so I don't know, I definitely.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: Remember that moment and thinking about it and kind of being a short moment of anxiety as well, where I thought, I hope he's okay. But he yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: So we've deviated a little. I want to go to the question. So in the description of Definitely Dylan, you write that you bring a fresh, modern, feminist perspective to the exploration of the work of Bob Dylan and its relevance in our current time. So, again, I can't imagine that there's anyone who is listening to this who isn't familiar with you and your work. But can you tell me more about your approach to the the follow up is how we keep him current or relevant in our current time?
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: I think for us he keeps himself relevant, but for other mean, how do we achieve that?
[00:17:43] Speaker C: To be fair, I don't think anyone needs any outside perspective to understand Bob Dylan and why he's relevant and so on. And every once in a while, you come across people who really like to dismiss when people talk about Bob Dylan because they know, I just want to listen to his songs. I don't need anyone telling me what it means. And I think that's fair.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: I don't think any outside voices are.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Needed to understand great art. And I think we all relate to it in our own way. And I don't think any commentary is necessary at all. But I also think that it's fun to talk about it and it's fun to hear what other people are thinking about it, how they perceive it. So that's always where I'm coming from. And I think this tagline from a fresh, modern feminist perspective is so hearing it read back to me, I just think it's so earnest, but I guess that's who I am.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: Is it pre pandemic? Is that what it is?
[00:18:49] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe.
And also, I think it's just charging ahead, like trying to tell people my mission. But I hope that no one has been put off by the earnestness and maybe seriousness of that definition.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: But really especially because I never try.
[00:19:13] Speaker C: To shoehorn any feminist theory into my know. Maybe that's what some people are afraid of. But I think really what it is.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Is I'm aware that my approach to Bob Dylan is through a lens that's.
[00:19:31] Speaker C: Informed by my you know, I'm coming.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: At it as a white, CIS, middle class, millennial woman.
[00:19:42] Speaker C: And that just informs what I see in his songs.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: And I have always been kind of.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: Clamoring for the need for more female voices.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: And really what it is is that.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: So much about Bob Dylan has been said and written by men. And I think often we well, historically.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: There'S this idea that something that's said.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: By a white man is universally.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: It'S.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: Almost like white men don't bring their own experiences to what they're saying. But that's neutral. That's a neutral perspective.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: And as someone who has read so.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Much about Bob Dylan written by men and who has seen so many blind.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: Spots in their writing, all I'm saying is if we want a more nuanced.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Understanding of this great artist who has been so incredibly influential and so culturally relevant in so many ways.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: We need people from different backgrounds to.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Share their experience and what they see.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Because that will give us a more nuanced understanding of the art. Right?
[00:21:10] Speaker C: And so that's really what I've been saying. By saying we need more women, we also really need more people of color.
Because it's actually crazy to think how.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Few black scholars or black fans have.
[00:21:28] Speaker C: Written about Bob Dylan, an artist who has drawn so much know black to. I'd love to read more about that, but yeah.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: So I just think that there are.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: A lot of perspectives that have been untapped or not heard from enough. And I just think we can all benefit from having more of them.
I guess that's where I'm coming from. I also think the generational thing also has an impact.
I guess that's what I was trying to say about the modern feminist perspective.
Thankfully, there are now people younger than me talking about Dylan too. But when I was starting out in.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: 2018, it felt like I was the spring chicken among people talking about Bob Dylan.
[00:22:20] Speaker C: And I'm not anymore. In no way, shape or form.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: But luckily, there are many things that.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: I have many follow ups. But even as an exor, I have Boomers saying to me, well, he's our generation. Why are you interested in him?
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Okay, sit down.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Let's have a conversation. But there know, I'm reading through the proofs for the book that you contributed.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: To, and there is a lot that.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: In Grayley's chapter, he mentions you pushing back against certain authors and their misogyny. And you've talked about that in your interview in the Dylan review.
And I loved that you said that something that I agree with. Maybe that's why I loved it. But the female perspective is not a monolithic or singular perspective. And so having many different female voices or diversifying Dylan's studies. And then I also know that I am walking a fine line here and talking to white, middle class, cisgender women talking know, racial diversification in Bob Dylan studies is a little, know, questionable as well. But I want to hear all of those voices because there's a picture of who Bob Dylan is. And for us to fully understand as much as we can, we need everyone to participate in that conversation. And so I love know when you say, I love talking to women about Bob Dylan. Me too.
And then I was noticing know, the behind the shades. I'll take a shot at that's. A that's a line written about a woman. So is don't look back. She's got everything she needs. She's an artist. She don't look.
So we owe a great debt of gratitude to those men who came before us, I think.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Of course, absolutely.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: And I don't want to seem disrespectful, but I also feel that we need younger folks.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: And I'm so grateful for Rebecca Slayman.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: And everything she's doing. And the folks in that circle and for what you're doing because I think that it's adding so much to the conversation.
[00:24:36] Speaker C: Absolutely.
And I just think how do I say know? One of the people that I have thought about a lot when I was still at university is Walter Benjamin. Walter Benjamin, and he has this essay, The Task of the Translator, where he writes about how translations need to be.
Translations are usually not eternal, the art that the original text is eternal. But translations, because languages keep changing, need to be renewed and redone. And I think the same is true for criticism. Bob Dylan's work itself is constantly renewing itself. And I think it's up to us and every generation to find a new way to relate to it and to figure out in what ways the work is now relevant to their lives. And I really like, because you mentioned Rebecca Slayman that she was recently on Pod Dylan and talked about how she felt that like a Rolling Stone really spoke to her in the time after the pandemic when she and her generation were trying to figure out where they stood. So that is one example.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: It's a great interview and everyone should listen to plug Rebecca's work, definitely.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: But I think that that's why the people who have written so in depth about Bob Dylan like the Clinton Halens, the Michael Gray's, the Paul Williams Grill, Marcus Paul Williams I will always shout from the rooftops that I think Paul Williams is still incredible and to me holds up to this people. Those men were really essential to my development as someone thinking about Bob Dylan.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: And it's also a fact that if.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: I hadn't read some passages in Clinton Halen that I vehemently disagree with, maybe I wouldn't have articulated those thoughts because it wouldn't have been necessary to articulate them. So I think that's it's always a conversation and it's an internal conversation. And those works are really important and I think I still think they should be read because they formulated a lot of things for the first time. But I think it's important that we're also aware that those are narratives that these men created. And I think it's also our I don't know if duty, but I think.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: It'S up to us and we have.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: The permission to challenge those narratives and point out that those are merely narratives and not facts.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: And I think one of the things.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: That I agree with you that is.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: So wonderful about your work is that you have opened up the possibility because of your confidence to challenge Clinton Halen which a lot of folks would not have done because we are well behaved, I guess and we didn't want to overtly question but you did. And you gave us that space to question those narratives and to present the alternative or parallel or apocryphal interpretation of Dylan. And that's an incredible gift that you've.
[00:28:05] Speaker C: Given to I mean, that's a huge compliment. Thank you. Very mean.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: I had pointed out certain bits and pieces that I thought were not okay.
[00:28:21] Speaker C: In, for example, Clinton Halen's writing. But I also remember that when I spoke in Tulsa in 2019, and because I spoke about everything we're talking about, essentially why it's important that we have different voices, where we have a diversity of voices. Talking about Bob Dylan in part so.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: That we recognize past narratives that are.
[00:28:47] Speaker C: Either outdated or were never really okay, and that certain ideas need to be challenged. But I think afterwards, a lot of people were basically just like, oh, this is the woman who criticized Clinton Halen.
And I am really aware that this is not necessarily what I want to be known.
I because I don't really think I need that.
Don't I don't want it to be just kind of outrage content or whatever or for people to think I'm writing Clinton Halen's coattails by criticizing him or anything like that. I don't even know if you want to put that in, but.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: There are several times in every podcast that I say, we can edit that. David will edit that out, and sometimes he does. But I think that because I have a different experience of that being in the audience and that it was invigorating that there were some people who really did feel that you were taking a shot at Halen, but a lot of us were just know, kind of looking at each other. This is know, these are things that we've all thought but haven't said out loud, and you said it for us. And I think especially as an older generation than you, we've been taught to be respectful of the folks that came before us, and you showed us a way that we can still be respectful, but also question that authority to move the conversation forward.
And so I appreciate that.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: Thank you. That means a whole lot.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: So we're leaving it.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: Am.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: I don't know where to go with the next question because we're out of order.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: So I do want to just ask this question.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: So in your Dylan review interview, because I thought this was funny, you said you're a recovering academic. What does that mean? And I love that that you're a covering academic.
[00:30:43] Speaker C: So I studied comparative literature, and.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: I.
[00:30:49] Speaker C: Dropped out of my PhD because I was frustrated with academia. Honestly, I felt like, you know this once you're in academia for a while, you kind of see behind the scenes and you realize how rigid a lot of things are. Independent thought isn't always as welcome as it should be, and there's a lot of politics and playing games and so on.
I was just kind of tired of it, and I realized that this is not really what I wanted to pursue as a career. And then I was like, well, then why am I doing a PhD?
[00:31:22] Speaker A: But at the same time, I loved.
[00:31:26] Speaker C: Doing research and thinking about things deeply.
That's the part that I really liked. When I decided to drop out of my PhD, I had this wonderful opportunity to start a radio show and I didn't immediately bring the two together, but it turned out that that really gave me an opportunity to almost channel a lot of that energy into something that was joyful.
Didn't have any outside pressure. I literally could talk about whatever I wanted to talk about and it was all revolving around Bob Dylan, which is just I mean, to this day it just feels like that was one of the it's one of the most wonderful things that have happened to me. I'm so grateful for the opportunity that I could do that. So grateful that it found listeners, that it found an audience, that it initially found a home at a London radio station. But let me talk about Bob Dylan for an hour. Every know thinking back, I love that they took a chance on this and also just to fully throw myself into a project that was just joyful. After dropping out of my PhD, it took me a while to approach reading as a fun activity.
I'm going to be really honest with you.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: I haven't read Kafka since dropping out.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: Of my know someone who was so important to me, who I spent so much time with, and I haven't gone back.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: I had a similar experience that once I finished my degree, I spent four years away from reading about reading Dylan. I listened to him, I saw shows, but I mean, not as I wasn't as active and so that four years was just a drought for me, but good.
[00:33:17] Speaker A: I was so just saturated and it's.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Good to be saturated by Dylan, but it was just the formality of it that it did feel like a chore where now I don't feel that pressure. I understand completely.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
But basically I think I obviously bring the tools that I acquired at university to what I do.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: I studied literature, especially comparative literature, so.
[00:33:47] Speaker C: I bring a lot of that to what I do. But at the same time and I'd be curious to hear your opinion on.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: This, I do see a certain divide.
[00:33:57] Speaker C: Between kind of academic studies of Bob Dylan and then kind of more popular.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Writings on Bob Dylan even though they.
[00:34:07] Speaker C: Cover such similar grounds sometimes. And really the difference sometimes is just the register of language, the accessibility of terms and theory and language. And I will say that that was.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Something that I made a conscious decision to make what I do hopefully accessible.
[00:34:31] Speaker C: To a wider audience and to make it somewhat entertaining. And I mean, obviously this is partly subjective and I have had one star reviews of the podcast to say she's like a professor. So boring. It's like, okay, fine, it's not going to be for everyone.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: But.
[00:34:52] Speaker C: I try to do what I find interesting. And that will always draw on what I learned, what I gained from going to university, being able to study and so on.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: But I hope that I can also.
[00:35:06] Speaker C: Kind of be I don't want to say, like a teacher or whatever, but I hope that I can communicate some of the things that I learned and.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Apply them and bring them to people who maybe don't have a master's in comparative literature.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: But I think there's something to that that Dylan invites us to live an intellectual mean. I don't know that maybe there are some casual Dylan fans, but they're know people who once they engage with Dylan, they're engaging at a very deep level and they're living a more intellectual and interesting, in my opinion, life.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: And so what you're saying yeah, I.
[00:35:49] Speaker B: Think the register of the language and the use of theory is probably different among the more strict academics.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: But I think that artistic and intellectual.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Engagement is common among all Dylan fans, whether it's more the academic side or the other side. And I think for me at least, there's space for everyone and we need as many voices as possible. But I get frustrated when I had the experience, when I first said I wanted to write on Bob Dylan, with all due respect, and I won't name names, but the advisor said, Isn't that trendy?
[00:36:28] Speaker C: And I said I thought, well, how.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Many books about Abraham Lincoln can you write? Because the professor was a Lincoln scholar. And I just thought, no. And I said, thank you for your time. And I went to a different advisor. But I feel like the Nobel Prize should have legitimized him in the academy, that this is really a legitimate field of study and it's gaining traction there. But I would love for people in 400 years if the Earth is still here, that's an asterisk for people to be discussing Dylan and having disagreements and conversations the same way we do about Shakespeare.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
And also I think it's important to remember bob Dylan didn't spend very much time at know he dropped.
So I do think it's important I understand why there are different levels know Dylan's study because he himself bridges that gap between high and low art and he in many ways kind of did away with that division.
And I mean, if you look at his influences in rough and rowdy ways, he quotes Homer and the classics and Moliere, but then also there's so much popular culture in it as he really he draws from such a variety of influences and it's high and low and everything in between. And so I think we also should approach his work in this way that doesn't draw these firm lines saying this is only for academics and this is only for the fan forums. And I mean, to be honest, that's why I do think that mediums like podcasts, substack, even Twitter, whatever you want to call it, are so important because.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: They make the conversation accessible to everyone.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Anyone who wants to participate.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: I do think that that division becomes.
[00:38:35] Speaker C: More and more negligible. And I think it's a good thing.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: It's an artificially created division because there are people who, like you were saying, who don't have a master's or an advanced degree, who are producing brilliant work that shouldn't be.
I think they're just people who want to stay in their little enclave and claim some sort of legitimacy that maybe we need to break those walls down.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: A little bit more.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: And I think they are breaking down. You're right. They're more negligible now, as we see in 2019 at the conference, or we saw that and then 2023. I do absolutely love that beautiful mix of folks.
[00:39:16] Speaker C: And I also think that I think what makes academic conferences or let me try and see how I put this.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: I think academic study of a certain.
[00:39:29] Speaker C: Subject is often necessitated because there is a need for very specialized study. And with someone like Bob Dylan, who was already being dissected by fans before he had a firm hold in academia, I think that division just isn't as that's not as necessary because there is.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Already such a specialized discussion going agree ah, so easy.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: So I want to talk about we've talked about so he's dylan is often asserted about his songs and about songs in general that they're not meant to be read but heard. And you may have covered this in Mondo scripto most notably. Perhaps he expressed this in his Nobel lecture recently in the Philosophy of Modern Song. So is it possible to study lyrics as poetry without the music? And do they stand alone as poetry?
[00:40:27] Speaker C: I think they can be discussed as poetry, but I don't think they are ever just poetry.
I think we can write about them in the same way that we can only write about the performance side, I guess. But neither is showing us the full mean with an artist. There's so much to be said about the nuances in Dylan's performance as well as the intricacy of his lyrics or the beauty of his lyrics.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: I understand why someone might feel more.
[00:41:04] Speaker C: Confident with a certain approach. I'm just looking over at my bookshelf and I see Christopher Rick Still and Visions of Sin, which is a great book, but he is not writing about performance at all.
But there's still a lot in the books that's very insightful and has given me a lot to think about. But I just think it's not necessarily the complete picture.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Agreed. I was thinking about this too, and I meant to say it earlier, that every grain of sand I actually think that lyric change from the bootleg hanging in the balance of a perfect finish plan rather than the reality of man, that change is so small, but it's so significant. And it reminded me of that now that we have fragments too, just this idea that he changed and not dark yet.
He doesn't hear a murmur of a prayer and that replaced. He's waiting for the master to bring him back and to guide him back.
It just shows how he in one case, he's like the reality of man is probably not that positive. Maybe that's how I look at it.
But it's all temporal and we do horrible things to each other as human beings, especially in context of that song. I'm talking too much now. But it does add to not dark yet, that there is just this weight that he feels and just watching that process happen. When you were talking about him revising me, the lyrics, it made me think of that.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: But yeah, it was just a note that I had.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Just a side note.
[00:42:51] Speaker C: So true. Yeah, it's beautiful.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: He has these moments where he's just kind of like that something as beautiful.
[00:42:59] Speaker A: As the original composition still isn't finished.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: To him and he revises.
So your work focuses on Dylan's other visual art and I've loved listening to your work on that. So what drew you to the visual.
[00:43:16] Speaker A: Mean?
[00:43:17] Speaker C: I think there are almost like two answers to this. One is the very practical answer that I'm based in London and the Halcyon Gallery is here, which often exhibits Bobziden's work. So I have just been able to.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Go see it, which a lot of people are not able to.
And so I think inspired by that.
[00:43:40] Speaker C: I've just thought about it more than a lot of people probably, who maybe only see kind of like a JPEG online.
I think that's already an advantage that I have. But then also, I think the way I see it, for all the reasons that we've already outlined, bob Dylan is.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: An artist in the truest sense and.
[00:44:05] Speaker C: He has chosen different media to express himself.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: And usually he chooses the medium of.
[00:44:13] Speaker C: Writing and the medium of performance and the medium of playing. I mean, there's performance, I guess, but performance being playing different instruments and singing and then writing.
[00:44:25] Speaker A: And I think the visual art is.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: Just another language for him to express certain ideas.
But I very much see Dylan the artist, shining through in all of those media, in all of those art forms. And I think that I see similar themes emerging. I see the sense of humor coming through.
I very much just see Bob Dylan the artist is expressing himself in a different way. And that to me is always fascinating.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: And I know that a lot of.
[00:45:07] Speaker C: Fans either don't take interest in the visual art and everyone's right.
[00:45:11] Speaker A: I mean, some people are just interested.
[00:45:13] Speaker C: In Bob didn't for the music, and I think that's fair.
But at the same time, I have seen some pretty harsh criticism and I just always think while I absolutely don't think that Bob Dylan is beyond criticism, I also think that and no one is obliged to like everything he does. But I do also think that there is I personally don't think that critics should assume that they are smarter than the artist when they are quick to dismiss something.
[00:45:50] Speaker A: And I think that when I see.
[00:45:54] Speaker C: Something by an artist that I admire, like Bob Dylan, you know, I do think that even if it doesn't resonate with me immediately, I try to kind.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Of hold out on judgment.
[00:46:05] Speaker C: And have some patience while I maybe engage with the work a little bit to see if it maybe opens up more, if there's more to be discovered.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: And usually I find that there is.
[00:46:18] Speaker C: Something there that I find compelling. And I mean, certainly with the visual.
[00:46:23] Speaker A: Art, I started thinking about it and.
[00:46:27] Speaker C: Writing about it, and often it was in that process that I was like, oh, my God. Okay, now I get it. Now I understand.
And now I see how it relates to all the other things that he's done recently for your book. I got to explore a lot of that. And honestly, going into the writing of that chapter, which is about time and time, Bobbin's treatment of time in his really post rough and rowdy ways work, I did not think that I would be writing about the visual art so much and that it would relate so much. Yeah, that would relate so much. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: Because that really helped me unlock the.
[00:47:15] Speaker C: Visual art, or a lot of the visual art in the process of writing.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Well, having just read your chapter last night, or reread your chapter last night, it's fascinating how you find that intersection, and that was one of my questions. Or what are the themes that you see in his visual work that you've also found in his lyrics or his music or other work in that you express that so seamlessly in that chapter about his concepts of time, which obviously, that's a major theme throughout his entire work. But it's just you bring in retrospectum, which you just do a lovely job of that.
[00:47:51] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: I'm really encouraged, and I don't want to talk too much about the book, but having just read through so many of the proofs, I'm more excited and energized now about it than I was maybe a week or so ago.
[00:48:10] Speaker C: I'm so looking forward to the book. It's such a beautiful project. Thank you. So many wonderful writers are included in it, so I think it will be.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm just grateful that I was sitting at a concert with my parents, and.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: I thought, this is a really and.
[00:48:27] Speaker B: I knew what the set lists were, but again, the difference between reading something and actually experiencing it and the performance this is really dark. And then I gave a paper, and Court was brilliant enough to say, we should do a book on this. And then there's so many people that I respect and that I consider not only colleagues, but friends who've graciously contributed, and it's just a really wonderful project. So I'm just grateful to everyone, but.
[00:48:55] Speaker C: I'm grateful that I get to be a part of it. And the irony doesn't escape me that a few years after dropping out of my PhD, I'm now presenting at conferences and I get to be in a Routledge book.
It's very funny. I see a sense of humor. The universe has a sense of humor. But thank you so much, first and foremost, to you and Court for asking me to be a part of it.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Well, thank you, but it's very Dylan esque that you defined your own terms of your success.
[00:49:27] Speaker A: So there you go.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: So what are you working in the that hopefully we'll work on?
[00:49:35] Speaker A: What are you working on now other.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: Than the podcast and working with Rebecca and all of the things that we've mentioned?
[00:49:42] Speaker C: Yeah, so, I mean, I just published that conversation with Rebecca, which was such a fun one to record, and I am really hoping that we can continue.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: That conversation because I don't know, I.
[00:50:02] Speaker C: Feel like it shouldn't be such a radical thing to have two women talking about Bob Dylan, but it still somehow is. So I do want to make space.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: For that on the podcast because of.
[00:50:21] Speaker C: Everything that we talked about, because I.
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Think that things will come up in.
[00:50:25] Speaker C: Those conversations know, have just previously not really been discussed. So I am really excited about that.
And especially also because what I've done so far on the podcast before that, the radio show for a while was conversations that I had with my partner Robert, which were always interesting, I thought. And when I started the podcast, I mostly left those conversations behind to focus on more in depth studies and kind of audio essays.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: And those are important to me because.
[00:51:08] Speaker C: They allow me to write about something.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: That I'm interested in and explore something.
[00:51:14] Speaker C: And go down the rabbit hole on a certain topic. And also just because I feel like no one else is, because those are the topics that I just find, like, no one else is writing about it. So I want to write about them, but also because it takes me a.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: While to produce those because of my process.
[00:51:37] Speaker C: I do really want to bring back.
[00:51:38] Speaker A: More of those conversations because, first of.
[00:51:42] Speaker C: All, I think they're really fun to listen to as well and fun to record.
[00:51:45] Speaker B: Oh, you guys, talking about Dirty World was so good.
[00:51:51] Speaker C: I love that, too.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Yes.
I thought there were a handful of us that loved that song, but I was just so glad to hear you talking about it.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a really great conversation. I feel like we hit the ground running and already touched on every single song that we talked about. Could have been an episode in and of itself.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:52:14] Speaker C: I'm looking forward to the next one, and I think rebecca is up for it. So I think we will continue that exploration.
But I am also working on one.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: Of my kind of more in depth.
[00:52:27] Speaker C: Episodes that I'm really excited about because I did part one on murder ballads talking so good. Thank you.
But the thing is that episode, which is about the murder ballads from the folk tradition that Bob didn't sang early on in his career and then how he kind of channeled that into songs of social justice and how he kind of used the drama of these murder.
[00:52:54] Speaker A: Ballads to hone his own writing and.
[00:52:58] Speaker C: To also write these very emotional and.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: Kind of dramatic heavyweight songs, heavy hitting songs. But the thing is that episode almost.
[00:53:12] Speaker C: Came about as a necessity to get to what I actually want to talk.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: About, which is the Bob Dylan's tendency.
[00:53:23] Speaker C: Really, since Time Out of Mind and Grayley Heron has written about that in his fantastic book on Time Out of Mind, but then also Love and Theft.
[00:53:33] Speaker A: Not so much modern times, but tempest.
[00:53:38] Speaker C: Together through life, I think, and onwards, mostly 21st century, starting with Time Out.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: Of Mind to bring these sinister undertones.
[00:53:48] Speaker C: Into his songs, often his love songs.
And that has just fascinated me ever.
[00:53:54] Speaker A: Since I realized that.
[00:53:58] Speaker C: Ever since I had the thought that moonlight on love and theft I'm preaching peace and harmony, the blessings of tranquility. Yet I know when the time is right. To strike.
I'll take you. Cross the river, dear. There's no need to linger here. I know the kinds of things you like.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: So ever since I kind of made.
[00:54:18] Speaker C: That connection, I've been fascinated with it. And.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: I've written about 40 or 50 pages already.
[00:54:28] Speaker C: But the way that I work is.
[00:54:31] Speaker A: That I think about it and I.
[00:54:35] Speaker C: Never really fully know where my thoughts are going to go when I start with it. I always start with a hunch and then kind of I write and I think about it until kind of the story kind of reveals itself to me.
But I'm fascinated with this topic because.
[00:54:52] Speaker A: I think it's so subversive and I'm.
[00:54:55] Speaker C: Interested in the moral implications of it.
[00:54:58] Speaker A: I'm interested in, by extension, the role.
[00:55:02] Speaker C: Of art to provoke a response.
How do we feel about these songs? Kind of in an age of cancel culture, in an age where we often have this idea that art has kind of a moral responsibility and a responsibility of representation and all of those things.
But that's why I'm thinking about and the more I think about it, the more I just see the strands kind of reaching out into so much of Dylan's work. And now it's just a matter of.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Kind know, trying to tell that story.
[00:55:43] Speaker C: I feel like the term storyteller is so overused now. But I do really think in order to talk about this in a way to hopefully bring people along on my thought process, I have to make it.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: A certain I have to find like.
[00:56:00] Speaker C: A thread running through. So that's what I'm working on.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: But I'm looking forward to that. And I did kind of to speak to what you're saying about the tone. That's why I heard to be alone with you in such an ominous way when we saw in DC.
[00:56:17] Speaker C: That's a big one.
[00:56:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's one of the ones. That is obviously the most recent example.
[00:56:27] Speaker C: Because he's rewritten that Foreshadow Kingdom. But it's one in a series of songs where there is there's a dark undertone and kind of like threatening undertone.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: And even the way the vocalization of it, it felt strange to me in that moment.
[00:56:46] Speaker C: Yeah, there's definitely like it's ominous in a know it's like, do I want to be alone with this person?
Is it safe to be alone with this person?
[00:56:57] Speaker B: I don't want to see him in an alley.
So what is your favorite Bob Dylan memory?
[00:57:05] Speaker A: This is my last question for oh, I know it's hard.
[00:57:10] Speaker C: I mean, how can you just choose one? How can you choose just the other?
[00:57:17] Speaker B: Yesterday. David said what's? That Bob Dylan song you love. And I looked at him like, what do you mean?
And he said, I know, I heard it as soon as I said.
[00:57:31] Speaker C: So.
[00:57:31] Speaker A: I have so many incredible Bob Dylan memories. And I mean, that's that's the joy of feeling such a bond with an.
[00:57:43] Speaker C: Artist'S work and the community that has accumulated around it, you know, that there's something about seeing him for the first time. When I was 17, tell me.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Concert.
[00:57:58] Speaker C: I went to Zurich.
He was playing in a pretty large stadium, and I went with my mother, who did not listen to Bob Dylan growing up. I introduced her to Bob Dylan and she's since become more of a fan. And she might be listening to this. So if you're listening, hello, Mama.
But we had seats kind of in.
[00:58:24] Speaker A: The side, and when Bob Dylan, the band came on stage, all of a.
[00:58:30] Speaker C: Sudden there was a rush and people got out of their seats and rushed towards the stage, much like they did in Rome. The second ever time that happened was at the last concert that I was at, beginning of July in Rome.
Although there was towards the very end, towards the ending of the last song in Zurich in 2002, it was at the very beginning. And I said to my mom, I said, Please, can we go? We have to go, we have to go. And she said, you know, I'm going to stay here, but you should go. And so I ran down the stairs and unfortunately, I was held back by the bouncer, but the bouncer allowed me to stand a lot closer to the stage than our seats were.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: And I watched the concert from there.
[00:59:13] Speaker C: And I swear he looked at me at some point. I swear he saw my big smile.
[00:59:19] Speaker B: Your buddy Holly moment.
[00:59:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I felt that. And there's just something I mean, that's why we go see live music, right? There's something spiritual about experiencing the moment of creation together to the moment of performance, and to be physically in the same space with an artist and watching.
[00:59:41] Speaker A: And hearing them do their thing in.
[00:59:44] Speaker C: Front of your own eyes and to feel it viscerally through the speakers and so on. So, I mean, that was incredible.
[00:59:52] Speaker B: What a special memory. With your mom, too.
[00:59:55] Speaker C: Yeah, and we've since seen a few concerts together, and it's always wonderful and very special.
And I also want to mention the community that has kind know the community of Dylan fans. And I also feel so incredibly grateful for the community that's kind of accumulated around definitely Dylan, because when we were all hanging out in Tulsa in the lobby.
[01:00:23] Speaker A: In the lobby, I don't know if that counts as a Bob Dylan moment.
[01:00:30] Speaker C: But of course, Bob Dylan was at the center of everything. So to me, that was one of the most beautiful moments, honestly.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah. The moment where you said, what I love about know this Dylan community is that we're all so positive and we want each other to succeed. And I've said that so many times that I don't want anything negative in this space.
I just want positivity and support and generosity. And you articulated that about us. And also when you were thirsty, I thought that was funny. And I was like, I'm on it.
I looked so determined.
[01:01:07] Speaker C: You were so determined. I feel like I saw a new side to you that night. I realized that you make things happen.
I was like, Erin, I just had.
[01:01:21] Speaker A: This vision that night how wonderful our.
[01:01:25] Speaker C: Group was in the sense that everyone.
[01:01:28] Speaker A: Brought their personal essence to our crew.
[01:01:35] Speaker C: And contributed something so essential.
I just saw how everyone was so integral, such an integral part, and I was so happy that every person was a part of it, and I just felt nothing but love and positivity in that moment. And how often can you say that you have a group and you're so grateful for every single person and you so genuinely are interested in what everyone has to say and you're rooting for one another? And it felt so special.
[01:02:17] Speaker A: It was one of my favorite moments this year, ever.
[01:02:22] Speaker C: No, but it was very important to me. It was very important to me.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: I concur. David calls it, and I call it, too, bob Dylan Sleepaway Camp, where we're all going to talk about Bob Dylan all day, and I just come home with incredible energy and I'm happy. But also, I'm a little bit down because I want to wake up and talk about Bob Dylan.
[01:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's just because there's something.
[01:02:48] Speaker A: So beautiful at the heart of what.
[01:02:52] Speaker C: Brings us all together. I think that's what accounts for all.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: The positivity, because it's just fundamentally a wonderful thing that we all love.
[01:03:01] Speaker C: So nothing but love and positivity and good vibes.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Agreed. Is there anything else you'd like to share? I just want to thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate this time with you.
[01:03:15] Speaker C: I love this conversation.
It's been great. And I think the questions that you sent were also just really wonderful and so thought provoking.
Is there anything else that I think we should talk about?
See, I didn't make any notes for that question.
I probably should have.
I thought that'd probably arrive out of the remaining conversation.
Let me have a look at my notes.
[01:03:43] Speaker B: I would talk about Bob Dylan all day, every day.
[01:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know, I think I.
[01:03:50] Speaker C: Said everything that I wanted to, that I wanted to say, which is also kind of nice.
[01:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's all.
[01:04:03] Speaker B: Going to david always leaves this in when I say I'm going to stop recording now. Okay. Thank you so much again for your time. And now I will stop recording.
[01:04:17] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Dylan Tones podcast. Be sure to subscribe to have the Dillon Taunts sent directly to your inbox and share the Dillon Taunts on social media.
