Interview with Elizabeth Cantalamessa (by Erin Callahan) (+)

November 14, 2023 00:47:45
Interview with Elizabeth Cantalamessa (by Erin Callahan) (+)
The Dylantantes (+)
Interview with Elizabeth Cantalamessa (by Erin Callahan) (+)

Nov 14 2023 | 00:47:45

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An interview with Elizabeth Cantalamessa by Erin Callahan

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[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is a part of the FM Podcast Network, the home of Great music podcasts. Visit [email protected] you are listening to the Dylan Taunts podcast. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Welcome to another edition of what is It About Bob Dylan? I am with Elizabeth Cantelamesa. She is a PhD Candidate at the University of Miami. She earned her BA and MA in Philosophy at the University of Wyoming, and her research interests include the intersection of social philosophy, the philosophy of language, aesthetics, meta metaphysics, and meta philosophy, just some light pursuits. Her dissertation introduces a model of humor as a tool for manipulating social norms. She's an emerging scholar with the Mark Twain Circle of America and was a farm Fellow. That's easy for me to say. Her research focuses on Twain's linguistic pluralism and the social function of non factual forms of speech, such as humbug, irony, and tall tales. She has a substac called Secondhand Thoughts where she and I quote, publishes meandering essays about random stuff. I love that and I just subscribed and it's delightful, so I recommend it to everyone listening. She's been a guest on the Philosopher's Nest podcast and she gave a brilliant presentation entitled Art is a disagreement, authorship, and responsibility in the philosophy of modern song at the World of Bob Dylan Conference in Tulsa this past May. We are both currently in Houston, but we found it easier to meet via Zoom rather than in person because it is unbearable to leave the house in temperatures above 100 degrees, and anywhere in Houston is about an hour from any other place in Houston because of the traffic. So welcome. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Elizabeth, thank you so much for having me. I'm honored and delighted to be here. [00:02:06] Speaker B: I am so glad to talk with you and to finally meet you. We were in Tulsa together, but we didn't get a chance to meet. So it's nice to finally meet you and hopefully we'll get to hook up sometime in Houston. [00:02:18] Speaker A: So let's jump right in. [00:02:19] Speaker B: What is it about Bob Dylan? [00:02:22] Speaker A: I wish I knew. No, but I think for me the answer actually comes down to what we're doing right now, which is the community that has sort of grown around Dylan and Dylan's work in particular, sort of intellectual and academic, and the fan communities that are interested in his work. So for me that has been the most rewarding aspect, is getting to know all these other people who have the same tastes as me, the same interests who love Dylan as much as I do, as well as how his work introduces me to variety of other things, historical references, the intertextuality questions about authorship and originality, things that I then go on to explore in my academic research, but I wish I knew at the same time. It's that very question I think that I enjoy the most that enables me to have these connections and relationships with people I've created, these friendships, people I see every year on tour and the like. So it's not so much maybe Bob Dylan for me, but the people that love Bob Dylan as well. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Thank you. That's a fantastic answer. Do you think that that know. We noticed, Laura, Kentrab and I made a comment, we had a conversation in Tulsa, which I wish you were part of, that there's so much positivity in that community. Do you find that. Does that encourage you to travel on with. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. And everyone's sort of self aware, too. My family doesn't. They're not into Dylan, so they've learned to accept my fanaticism, I think, more and embrace it. Not embrace it so much, but they accept it. At least they don't question it as much as they used to. Whereas when I'm around other bobcats and the like, or when I was at the conference, I just felt accepted in this way where we didn't have to justify and defend why we were doing this. Everybody already sort of takes it for granted so much, but we're already all invested and committed to his work and what he does being valuable. And so it's just nice to be able to talk to other people who have the same background and the same interest in his work and use it to explore these further questions. [00:04:45] Speaker B: I agree with you that there are people that when you're out in the world, people who are not fanatics, they have that questioning look. What is it about Bob Dylan, that guy from. The guy from the Pepsi commercial or whatever it is that they have an idea of Bob Dylan being. They just see it very superficially and how he's represented in pop culture, which is an important part of the conversation. But it's just one little bit of the conversation. [00:05:17] Speaker A: And I think in many ways, it can kind of stifle the conversation. I've joked before that one of the worst questions I can get from someone is like, what's your favorite album? Oh, God, don't ask me that. It's like, I can tell you my maybe favorite recent performance of one particular song. That in and of itself demonstrates to me that you're maybe an outsider. Insiders, we don't typically ask each other, what's your favorite album? It's just already such a contentious question. It already has so much presuppositions that, yeah. So I've actually tried to explore that, how certain questions, answers to certain questions, maybe constitute you as a member of the community or a community, an aesthetic community. [00:05:59] Speaker B: So there's a language. I mean, you study language and linguistics, and so there's a language that we speak among the Dylan obsessed that is not shared outside of this community. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:06:12] Speaker B: All right. So what started your interest in Bob Dylan? What's your origin story? [00:06:16] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. It was nice reflecting on this question when you sent it to me. My family is not into him. My parents weren't into him. So it's not as if I grew up hearing him or his albums. I knew of him, I think, in high school, but it wasn't until after high school with a person I was dating at the time who was into him and into his work, convinced me to go to Arkansas to see him live. This was 2008, so it was around the time that Telltale signs came out. They were heavily promoting it. I think we even bought the CD at the show and listened to it in the car on the way home. Just fell in love with that album. That is still, if I were to answer what my favorite album, it would be telltale signs terms of. [00:07:01] Speaker B: Because it's your entry point album, right? [00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And in particular, I wasn't even aware of many of the original songs, that there's alternative takes in the album, but in particular, the live performances. So for me, it was seeing him live the following year. We then followed him around. I think it was a ballpark tour. There's multiple dates in Texas, so we followed it during the summer. So we followed him around. And the fan club online, through his website, offered early entry tickets. And so we were able to get there early and get up close, and that was just this whole other experience. So I fell in love with many of the songs like Spirit on the water through their live performances and seeing him live. So for me, it was starting with live contemporary stuff, and then eventually working my way back to the standards and the just being continually just impressed and amazed at the depth of his work and his art history. [00:08:05] Speaker B: I love that that's your entry point, telltale signs. Because I know as a kid, my entry point was the lyrics. My dad gave me a book of the lyrics, and I've said this a million times and said, take this, brother, may it serve you well, because he's an old hippie. But the first album I remember listening to was blood on the tracks. And I think that there's this beautiful advantage that younger Dylan fans have, obviously, the first Dylan fans have the chronology. They're experiencing the albums as they're created, so they're going through the creative process with Dylan. But younger fans, they can enter at any. You know, many of us have said this, so you can go forwards and backwards, or you can just kind of. It's like a buffet, and it's like the most wonderful buffet you could be at. I love that I'm jumping around because this is a normal aspect of conversation. But you do say on your website that you're a nomadic nerd, which is an aspirational goal for many of us, myself included, and that you follow Dylan on tours, you said, so how many times have you seen Dylan and what tours have you seen? What's your favorite show? Or even performance within a show? [00:09:20] Speaker A: Yes. So I want to say a lot. Yeah, too many times and not enough at the same time. And I don't have an exact count, but it's less than 100, more than 50. So somewhere in the think more since the rough and rowdy ways tour than before. So, yeah. I cribbed the nomadic nerd expression from a description of Frederick Nietzsche, one of my favorite philosophers, by my other favorite philosopher, Richard Rorty. And I said, that's me. I love traveling. When the pandemic hit, I put most of my belongings in storage and sort of lived various places with friends or in hotels, in some cases, living out of my car, more or less staying in physical places. But everything I had was whatever could fit in my car, including my cat at the time. And I've always just really been attracted to the life on the road that you have when you follow him around, where your biggest concern is, like, getting to the next show. Right. Just been a very meaningful part of my life in a way that I think I've called it sort of the good Life is the Good lives, where you get to live this other life, become this other person when I'm on tour, that I don't get to be when I am working and at home again with people who often don't understand obsession and all that sort of thing, and seeing people that I've seen throughout the years on tour and the like. So that's, for me, been just the most probably rewarding aspect of the fanhood. As for my favorite show, I feel like my answers are really idiosyncratic, and I maybe have a favorite show that's, like, of the last tour lake that I've seen. After a certain point of seeing so many, they do start to blend together as well, but this last summer, I really enjoyed Luca, Italy. That's the show I wanted to go. [00:11:19] Speaker B: To, but my housing fell. [00:11:23] Speaker A: That was, there were a couple of spots that were really difficult to find places for. Yeah. And that was outdoor theater. There was a statue in the middle of the space. IT just really, I think, contributed to the atmosphere of the show. And then idiosyncratically, for me, I got to stand in the back. I couldn't find my seat because they take your phone away, so you get this little sticker or this little piece of paper that has your. I couldn't find mine, so I ended up standing in the back with other people, and we were standing and dancing, and I thought the show itself, of course, the performances were really strong. So it was this combination of the space people I was with and the show itself. That is, for me, my favorite one of the tour. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah. You said that you become a different person. That's sort of like Second Life. It's very Bactinian, isn't it? It's almost like it's Carnival esque. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:17] Speaker B: Can you share that? I mean, I've seen Dylan shows, but I have know it's aspirational to follow him, know which I will have to do probably in the next few years if I'm going to. But can you share with us how is it, like, a carnival esque experience that you're living, like, a second life? [00:12:35] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely carnival esque. I've used the same term also. Freak show. Yeah. Traveling to different cities, seeing the different audiences and how ways they're kind of always the same as, well. There's the same same, but different aspect to different countries, different parts of the world. You still see sort of the same sort of figures and roles people occupy. Yeah. I guess the number one way to describe it is that your biggest concern is just getting to the next show, getting outside the show, milling about with people. For me, I also like dressing up, and I also like teasing, I guess, other people that maybe aren't as well versed in the show. So now he starts on time. It's like eight on the dot. And so people will be coming in late, and I dubbed myself a clown, and so I'll kind of sort of tease them sometimes. Oh, this is mother of muses. Do you know this one clear sometimes that people just don't even know what they're in for? [00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I found that at shows, too. They're mad that he doesn't play what they want him to play, and even if he did, it wouldn't be how they wanted to hear it. It's not like it is on the album that they want to hear. He's not just performing that, so they don't understand what seeing a Dylan live performance is. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's a lot of fun. And I also like to refer to the front row seats that are very expensive, I think, many years, I'm not sure now, at least in the like, you can't see him very well from up front either, because there's a way in the piano. So I call it smash and grab, where it's just get money from the suckers. But, yeah, there's this way in which sort of everyday life is suspended and it's kind of in the background and you're doing these things. You wake up late sometimes you just go to the show. That's your number one thing. After the show, everybody hangs out and maybe discusses it or maybe just does other things. It depends. But just kind of this other way of living in a community and living with the other freaks, the other weirdos who are doing this sort of thing as well, that. Yeah. Take to be this again, like a very carnivale esque atmosphere and experience. As close as maybe it can get. [00:15:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you. You were in Rome, but you told us the Lucas show was maybe better. [00:15:11] Speaker A: For you, more enjoyable, but for idiosyncratic reasons. Really? Yeah. I felt like my answers to some of the questions when I was thinking about them probably reveals more about me than anything of how sort of self centered my valuations are. But the Rome show was. Oh, it was fantastic. I ended up getting a seat the day of because I wasn't totally sure I was going to go. And it was staged right up on the balcony, but it ended up being almost parallel to his piano, if not a little bit behind and closer than the front row was. So I was a little taken aback. I don't like being too close because I'm always worried. One, I'm kind of just intimidated and anxious about it, but two, I was worried of cheering or clapping too much or making too much noise and distracting the band or in some way being disrespecTful. I'm always anxious about that again, as the clown sort of person. But the audience was really receptive, which always adds, improves. The show were wonderful. The performance of only a river just brought me to tears. It was just beautiful, heart wrenching. And then the follow up of trucking. Totally unexpected when it started. This is a new arrangement of, I think it's mother of muses. And I was like, oh, my God. And then she starts the lyrics, I'm like, oh, wow. So that's just always so fun. And I got to beforehand, which was a lot of fun, too. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, she's wonderful. I love that moment when they're tuning, or even if you know what the set list is and they're tuning, you're like, oh, you know, it's just good. There's something special about that moment of anticipation while they're getting ready to play the next song. And I can't imagine what you're like, well, this is an interesting arrangement, but it's not the song you're expecting. Absolutely. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Oh, wow, another surprise. So, yeah, that was just a lot of fun. I try not to have expectations, just generally, so, let alone specifically in Dylan cases, but, yeah, it's always fun for these surprises to happen and, yeah, turning to Tony and, oh, what's going to happen? And seeing everybody, especially with only a river there. I really like the Bob Weir recording as well, performance. So the people around me, what is this? What is this? Trying to figure it out, see people sort of creaming in to listen. I'm like, it's only a river. [00:17:46] Speaker B: That's so cool. So if this is his last tour, because there's chatter in the Dylan verse that there's an end date to the tour and this is going to be his last tour, he's going to retire. Do you give any credence? Do you think that rumor has any validity? And then if it is, are there places that you haven't seen him that you want to see, that you would like to like? For me, even though I grew up in New Jersey, I've never seen him at the Beacon. And so when he announced, I know that shock, you can't see her face because there's no video on this. But she was shocked. Shocked. But I will be at the Beacon once they announce the Beacon shows in November. I'm very hopeful, but, yeah. So do you think the rumor is valid, or are there places that you like, bucket list places you want to see him? [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So I've actually, I guess, been operating under the assumption since the tour began with the promotional material saying 2021 to 2024, I've been operating under the assumption that that would be the end, that 2024 is going to be, I guess, the end. However, I also thought when the pandemic hit, I made peace with 2019 being the last year I would ever see shows. So that's in part why I have kind of gone overboard with seeing more shows than ever before, is because I've been assuming that, yeah, it will end. And every show now is just this gift because I thought we might not get anymore. I'm in a lot of debt now, but I don't think I'll ever regret it, honestly, at the end of the day. And so, yeah, of course I would be happy if to be surprised that the tour goes on or maybe there's a new iteration of the tour. I think a residency like you two is doing would be a lot of fun. Although maybe cats would move to would like. I really like casino shows. I haven't seen him in Vegas, so I would like to see him in Vegas. And I know he hasn't been to Alaska and I haven't either. So I would love, I think, to see him in Alaska to have an opportunity, an excuse to travel to Alaska. I guess it should be a lot of ways. I'm using the shows now too, is like an excuse to get out there and travel to places I otherwise wouldn't know. I wouldn't get out. And so I'm grateful for that as well. [00:20:11] Speaker B: That's wonderful. So we talked the other day, a group of us, for the Dylan taunts site about what post touring Dylan, what it will look like for us. And I think that you're in a really interesting position to answer this question and open up a dialogue in this way about what will that will look like. But also kind of how your research interests kind of relate to Dylan and your experiences with touring. Because this is, you have such a wonderful, rich Dylan, intellectual life, but also a practical experiences with him that are just fascinating, make you just a really interesting person to talk with. So yeah, if this is the end, what do you think it will look like after he stops touring? And then how will that affect your work? Or does that intersect at all? [00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I think some of the Bobcats, there was a lot of people at the Leon tour picture of us. I think there's like 25 or something. It's wonderful. But we were kind of talking about that and how will we see each other? We live all over the world, so if there's no more tours, how will that happen? And one person, Raymond just we'll find of that dismissed it. But he was just like, we'll figure it. So that comforting for me because of course, yeah, I have some anxiety about that of the community that I've grown to love and the people that I've formed these relationships with that. Yeah. If there's no tour dates, how the heck is that going to happen? Some people who think then some of them will switch more to the academic studies, like Bob Dylan. The world of Bob Dylan Conference. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Which I will. Well, maybe you could edit this out if it's bad. But I didn't pay to register for it. Because the cost was the cost of two Dylan tickets. And I was like, no, I can't paying $300. [00:22:09] Speaker B: That's two tickets. Oh, the switchyard. Yeah. Okay. [00:22:16] Speaker A: For me, there is, like, a priority to seeing him live. I think that trumps mostly everything else, even my other academic pursuits. If it comes into conflict with Dylan show or a plan Dylan tour. I will choose the Dylan tour over basically anything else. And so I guess I would have to rearrange my priorities in some ways. With regard to. I worked. I would like to, I think. And things I've considered doing is to help develop and sustain. The community based archive of the fans. And a lot of them collect, like, the posters and memorabilia. There's the people who record the shows and the ways in which they've done that in the past and now. And I love the Bob Dylan Center. But I felt that it was kind of missing that given how important the community and the folk sort of community that's grown around him. Is in sustaining his artistic value and pop culture status. I guess in some ways I felt that it was lacking. And there should be maybe representation and more of an archive. Or at least a space for the community's point of view of what we've kept or preserved and why people do it. So I think maybe one way to bridge those two dimensions of me or two forms of my life. Between the practical and I really like that. The practical and the academic, the theoretical. Would be to try to develop some way that we can collect an archive from the community's perspective. Taking testimony from people like sue and Al. I don't know if you know them. They call it a lot of the set list. She's one who thinks like, no, you shouldn't be talking about him. You should be following him. And then once he's done touring, then we'll start talking about him, I think soliciting testimony and points of view from them. As well as sort of the literal material and archival pieces. And developing. Sustaining it. The fan based or community centered archive. That would be something. Or that is something I think is valuable. And I think when the tour ends, I could dedicate a lot of my time to doing that. [00:24:56] Speaker B: So when the tour ends, you'll start talking to people about Dylan as now. I wonder, too, because you are interested in language. And how people use language. And if you had an oral history from those folks per se, that you could then kind of figure out or isolate what the language is within the Dylan community and how that sustains what you're saying, the folk community of Dylan and his pop culture status and whatnot. That would be a fascinating project. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. And you could think of the rituals and the traditions, right? Yeah. That I think help constitute the community as a genuine thing in addition to the language in terms like Bobcats. A lot of these terms and what we take for granted is agreed upon by everyone. Yeah. So using it as a genuine social phenomenon that we can learn about deep things of language and social norms and so on. Yeah. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Oh, I love championing. I'm rooting for. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Good. Yeah. Good. You can help me. [00:26:09] Speaker B: You know, actually Rebecca Slayman is interested in fan culture and she would be a great person. I would love to too, but I'm just saying that's something that's know her interest is heavily associated with. So you work with humor and Twain's language and humor. And so how does that intersect? Because we know Dylan is mean. I don't know if you saw Harry Hewitt's presentation in Tulsa. He did a presentation on Dylan and humor. But will you explain how Dylan is funny? And I put how in, how is he funny to people listening? [00:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess you edit this out. Part of the, the main panel I wanted to see was the one on humor, but I was recovering from the night before still, so I was unable to make, do we need to edit that out? [00:27:07] Speaker B: It's authentic. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Yes. I was unfortunately still recovering, so I was not able to make it to the 01:00 p.m. Session on humor. So I was very disappointed in myself for that because I was really excited to hear about that because I was just totally on board with, I think one of the papers was even called Dylan is humorous. And I'm like, yes, totally agree with that. [00:27:31] Speaker B: I know there are bootlegs. I'm sure we could get you. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Yes. That's great. I would love that. In fact, I should just follow up on emails, but I'm terrible about all that. Right. Dylan is humorous. One of the ways in which you could see Dylan as using humor as a tool, in the way that I think of it, a tool for manipulating, dismissing, challenging social norms is his answers to questions by interviews and in press conferences. Like in the, the interview, the interviewer will ask him something that he found to be ridiculous, that he would just answer in a humorous way. And so instead of not answering it, or attempting to answer it, maybe inauthentically, he used humor to challenge it and to dismiss it. And I think that still carries on to today, contemporary times and contemporary work and resisting the norms and the conventions that are put upon him in virtue of him being a public figure. So I think also with his autobiographical works, which I'm probably the most interested in, but also in relation to Mark Twain, I think it's both of theirs penchant for Tall tales, or what's called tall tales. So sort of exaggerating the truth, lighting the truth, however it would be that, I think is best represented, and most recently, his Rolling Thunder review documentary, Bob Dylan Story with Martin Scorsese. Yeah, I could just talk all day about that. I'm very fascinated by that work and how it was presented and how it's sort of something that I think might be aimed toward this community, the people in the know. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:16] Speaker A: You don't know enough about his background. You start watching it, you won't think any differently. But if you know enough, you'll be like, wait a minute. That's not what happened. When did you know it was a put on? Because about 2030 minutes in, I just started laughing. I was like, this isn't true. What is going on here? I was watching it with my mom at the time, who. Yes, she doesn't know anything. So at the same time that I was like, wait a minute. I understood she would just keep watching it and not think twice because she didn't know enough. And so I was just immediately like, what is he doing? What is going on here? And I found it very funny. But of course, you see the mainstream, the critical reception of it. Many people were annoyed or they felt like they were duped. And so this interesting question between humor and lying, or question, I think is interesting, at least. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting because when I started to question it, when they broke up the word review to a review, and I was like, is this like. And we're viewing it in a different way. It's just that it's apocryphal. He's just telling us a different tale. And then the stuff about Nixon and the bicentenNial, and I was like, Nixon wasn't president during the Bicentennial. And so that deepened my question. But, yeah, probably 20 or 30 minutes in, I was like, oh, this is a complete farce. This is fantastic. And I think people don't question. They feel more offended that they fell for it than they do questioning why he's doing it, why he's presenting that. And that, to me, is fascinating, too. Work on that. [00:30:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Like the jokes on them sort of thing, right? Yeah. [00:31:02] Speaker B: It reminds me of the playboy of the Western world riots, the sing riots in 1907, where when the people realized that he was making fun of them, they rioted because they realized that they were the butt of the joke and they were laughing at first, and then they realized, oh, wait a minute, this is aimed at us. But it wasn't enrolling Thunder review. It wasn't aimed at us. He was just having fun with us. And if you were on board, you went along with it. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I like that it can, in many ways raise questions about why are we watching it in the first place? What's the point? If you want to learn what happened during that time, you can just Google it. There's tons of testimonial and historical pieces on that time period and that tour and documentary and all that. I liked it as a way for him to be playful and to do something different than just rehash history that's available to anyone who's really interested in it. [00:32:01] Speaker B: Right. So would you consider looking at the other Scorsese no direction Home as part of that? I mean, he's definitely found a willing artistic partner, creative partner with Scorsese in this venture, in film ventures. So would you, in terms of the autobiographical stuff, do you find any humor there, or do you think he's being authentic in that? [00:32:25] Speaker A: I think that one is more authentic, and I think that plays into the expectations of the Rolling Thunder Review documentary maybe wouldn't have been as effective if we were already assuming it to be something like a farce or a joke. Whereas because he had previously done no direction Home, everyone expecting to consume this one in the ways. But no, that person is dead. As he says, in the beginning of it, I wasn't even born yet, continually reborn. So something I appreciate just generally about his artistic output is the ability. Don't look back. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:02] Speaker A: This ability to, I say, reinvent himself, but that's very cliched, but doing something different at the same time. He's still working with the same people. Same person. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah, he's constantly in creation or the state of creation and becoming. And I love that, too. In the Scorsese the direction home, he says that the artist can never be to place where they've arrived somewhere. And I love that because he's telling you so much about his own process in that one simple line. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:33:33] Speaker B: So what are you currently working on. [00:33:36] Speaker A: With regard to Dylan? [00:33:38] Speaker B: Well, I know you're working on your dissertation. So if you want to tell us about that or in regard to Dylan, you can talk about. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Currently. One thing I'm currently working on is a chapter, actually, for a collection on Taylor Swift and the philosophy of re recording. Where again, given my emphasis on language, I'm interested in how proper name, when you become a public figure, how your proper name and your likeness, your name and your likeness no longer strictly belong to you. You don't have special control or authority over your likeness and your name anymore. It becomes what I'm calling this zombie version of yourself, where in Taylor Swift's case, her own works were sold and bought against her will or without her consent. And so she's re recording her own works in order to create new zombie versions that will economically compete with her original recordings. And I think that that connects back to Dylan and Prince as well. The artist prince, who changed symbol in this way, that people who are artists who become public figures have to, in a way, battle or constantly sort of engage with this public persona, this other version of them that people either read into or exploit parity. I think in the US context, we have parity as a legally protected form of political criticism and free speech. So that's one area where you can see that public figures don't have special authority over how their likeness is used and can be used in ways that might go against what they want or their interests. I think Dylan also has been engaging with this throughout his career and tenure as a public persona. And going back to the humor stuff in the Rolling Thunder Review documentary, these are ways in which he's able to both fulfill, in some ways, his obligations to audience and fans. At the same time, he's not contained or constrained by those expectations and norms, again, to give his testimony or confess what he really thinks about his past experiences, or in the case of philosophy of modern time, giving us what he really thinks about modern songs. Of modern songs. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I knew what you meant. [00:36:09] Speaker A: I did that during my talk, too. For whatever reason, my brain wants to answer modern times. That's what it is. Yeah. [00:36:16] Speaker B: You want to insert his album there? [00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:20] Speaker B: That's awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to that. That'll be interesting because I think there's a really lovely point there about that public persona or the image of someone is just. It's so superficial. And American culture, we take that for granted. And Ray Padgett gave a talk last night on his book through the Center. And, you know, I don't know if you've read his book, but he did interviews with Bob Dylan's band members. And one of the questions was, did this unlock the enigma that is probably, you know. And I was sitting there like, are we ever going? Was his answer was so interesting because he said it really did humanize Dylan because you realize, know, he's just a guy, like he's someone's boss and know a member of the band. And there's a lovely story that he told or they played the audio. Winston Watson talking about his little girl with Dylan and how Dylan likes children because they don't look at him like Bob Dylan. And it's just that idea that there's a lack of humanity from that zombie person. I'm looking forward to reading your work on that quite a bit. That'll be interesting. So what other music do you listen to? Taylor Swift, obviously from that. And how does it relate to Dylan? [00:37:47] Speaker A: I will say I've only recently begun listening to Taylor Swift. I agreed to do this chapter before I really knew anything about her. But now I do listen to many of her songs pretty regularly. And Spotify informed me I was in like the top 13% of Taylor Swift listeners. I was kind of mortified listen to her that much. [00:38:10] Speaker B: I'll tell you my friend, who is a huge Dylan fan, her daughter loves Taylor Swift and she recommended that I listen to Taylor Swift. And then when you have a six year old niece, I think it's just a prerequisite. You have to listen to Taylor Swift. But I'm not in the top 13% that. What else do you listen to? [00:38:31] Speaker A: Yeah, actually what I listen to besides Dylan is rather, I guess, strange. Compared to Dylan. It would mostly be ambient music and psychedelic music, if anything, closer to murder most foul. The sort of vibe of murder most foul than a lot of his more, I guess, blues and rock and roll music. So, yeah, when I read that question, I was like, well, I guess technically it's not related to Dylan very much at all, other than blues music and things that he references. I've always appreciated using his music as a way an insight into older traditions, folk traditions and blues. So I do really enjoy, especially when I'm just happen to be listening to a song and I hear a line that he used or I can recognize a melody is familiar. I've always really appreciated that aspect of his. A really. [00:39:33] Speaker B: As a native Houstonian, there's a really cool part of the blues genealogy that goes through Houston via Peacock Records. And I would love to work on a piece on that. But I think it's a little bit of a story that's missing. Um, but yeah, the blues stuff is just good to. I love that stuff, too. And you can hear. I love that when you hear a line or a lick or something like that. Like you said. That's lovely. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Recently somebody said something about if they hear them from Houston, say, oh, if you ever go to Houston, somebody said they didn't like that song. And I was like, well, I love that song. I'm a biased listener in that sense because I'm from Houston, but also that comes from a lead belly song. Always appreciated connection as well. [00:40:30] Speaker B: You know, I do love Jersey Girl, but not the Bruce version. So what is your favorite Dylan memory? I mean, it's going to be hard to pick because you've seen him so many times, but good grief. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Yes. And again, I kind of am biased towards more recent stuff just because of pressure in my memory. But last summer I followed him through many of the California shows. I had originally only planned to see like a handful of shows, but unfortunately, fortunately my car was broken into in the Oakland show right outside theater, too. Fortunately, I didn't lose my laptop and my research or anything like that. All in all, it could have been much worse, of course, but I ended up putting my car, leaving my car at an airport parking lot and jumping in a van with an actual dead, veritable deadhead and following him around for many more shows than I had planned to. And experiencing what I think was probably the closest to sort of the deadhead experience. My biggest regret is not being born early enough to be deadhead, right, but born in time to be a bobcat. And so that was just seeing him multiple times at the LA shows and the Oakland shows. And that was when he played friend of the Devil, which was unexpected. And just a lot of, you know, sort of abandoning my car and abandoning again, sort of normal way of living and embracing this other life was just really meaningful to me. So definitely the last. And a lot of the shows are really a lot of fun too, as well. I think they're a little, maybe rougher, possibly. Lots of different reasons why, but the European shows in a lot of ways were kind of more polished. I think the California shows were just a little more rougher, a little sort of more spontaneouS. Back to how I remember when I would follow him when he had GA shows, and it'd be a little more rough and rowdy, so to speak. [00:42:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:41] Speaker A: So, yeah, that whole experience, to me, it was just really meaningful and some really great shows as well. [00:42:49] Speaker B: I have a friend who was a deadhead. He passed away in 2008, but yeah, he followed Dylan around a lot as well. And some of his stories from the road are fantastic. I wish I had an oral history of that stuff. But he had a collection of bootlegs, Bob Bootlegs, that he shared with me and just hard drive upon hard drive of bootlegs that were impressive. And so, yeah, that whole community of Deadheads was just loving and wonderful. And definitely it's sad that if the dead. If they've stopped touring, then it's sad for real this time. [00:43:34] Speaker A: But you know what I mean? [00:43:35] Speaker B: It's just such a lovely community that it's sad it's gone. And I don't know that there are other bands that will have that same fandom or encourage that. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Exactly. It's a way of life in many. I could not agree more. And sort of sound bite I've always used is all my best friends are deadheads. Somehow I just always seem to click, and then it'll come out. I'm clicking with somebody either on tour, sometimes just people have met randomly, and then it turns out they're deadhead. And it's like, yep, of course. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:08] Speaker A: It's just almost like a personality type in a community. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Of course. I wonder too, and we can edit this out, or, um. Because I don't think that it's relevant to our conversation, but when Jerry died, Carrie was really affected by it. And I didn't know him then, but he was written up in the Houston Chronicle that he walked out of his job at the alley and wasn't heard from for a little while. And I wonder if he was not only mourning Jerry, which was a significant loss, but also what you were saying about the community of folks who tour with Dylan and how will you see each other afterwards? And there's that loss as well, that those people are grieving with you, but you're also grieving the loss of being able to have that Nomadic existence with them once that. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Grieving a version of you that is manifested when you're engaged in that or doing that. [00:45:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I became good friends with someone. Deadhead and Dylan. Bobcat. This last can tour. And she was over, I guess, stage left. And I said something like, oh, that's pretty good scene. She's like, yeah, that's Jerry's side. Yeah, I thought that was really sweet. Still orient her concert experience, I think, in many ways around. [00:45:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah. That is genuinely my biggest regret, is that I wasn't able to do that, because I know I would have been right alongside all those other Deadhead people. And I do think Jerry's playing is very sort of proto ambient in many ways. So I enjoy listening to recordings because it strikes my sort of interest in that more meandering, ambient type music. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Wonderful. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:49] Speaker B: I saw them once and Dylan opened for them. It was in 1995, two months before Jerry died. I was very fortunate. [00:46:04] Speaker A: I actually had a really cool article that was on the front page of expecting Rain maybe earlier this year that was comparing Jerry to, as a comedian, as a humorist, and drawing on a lot of quotes of him and things and saying that the best way to understand what he was doing is something akin to a joke or something, humor rather than serious. So maybe he would appreciate that. [00:46:27] Speaker B: Right. So is there anything else you'd like to share? This has been so wonderful. I've enjoyed talking with you. [00:46:33] Speaker A: It's been a lot of fun. I think we should hang out sometime. [00:46:36] Speaker B: We definitely should. Absolutely. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:40] Speaker B: I'm so glad that there's another Dylan person in Houston that I can hang out with. Anything else? You have the last word. Oh, no. Too much pressure. [00:46:55] Speaker A: I'm hoping for dates to come out. [00:46:58] Speaker B: I know. Ray Padgett posted yesterday, tour dates released. But it was just. He was announced. I know. I did the same thing. I was like, and then it was just an advertisement for his talk last night. And I said, that was mean, man. [00:47:13] Speaker A: I actually was really hoping they would be released today and that would be one thing we could celebrate on our. [00:47:18] Speaker B: I know you, too. [00:47:21] Speaker A: They're coming. [00:47:22] Speaker B: They are. All right, I'm going to stop recording. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to the Dillon Tantes podcast. Be sure to subscribe to. Have the Dillontans sent directly to your inbox and share the Dillontans on social media.

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