[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is a part of the FM Podcast network, the home of great music podcasts. Visit
[email protected] you are listening to the Dylan Taunts podcast.
Hey everyone, this is Jim Salvucci of the Dylan Taunts, and welcome to another million dollar bash.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Must be Sada Santa.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: On October 13, 2009, the world awoke to learn that Bob Dylan had finally gone and done it. He had released a Christmas album. The fact that all his royalties and perpetuity would go to a charitable organization that feeds the hungry worldwide somewhat staunched the accusations of sellout, and critics were by and large receptive of the album. On that morning, though, we wondered, what could it contain? Would it be filled with original numbers or covers? Would Dylan take the same knowingly hip approach as Bruce Springsteen's Santa Claus is coming to town? Or would he imitate the smooth crooning of Bing Crosby's white Christmas? Or would we be subjected to the sure hit sensibility of, say, mariah Carey and her song that shall not be named? In the end, as always, Dylan was Dylan. He used his touring band, plus a few other musicians and a chorus, to record traditional hymns and some more modern carols. As he observed, there wasn't any other way to play it. These songs are part of my life. Just like the folk songs, you have to play them straight, too.
And for the most part, straight they are. Today we reconvene the million dollar Bash roundtable to discuss 2000 and nine's Christmas in the heart.
Introduce everyone, starting with Aaron Callahan. Aaron teaches English at San Jacinto College in Texas and is co editor of the recent politics and power of Bob Dylan's performance. Hey, ern.
[00:02:04] Speaker C: Hey, how are you today?
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Jim, good to see you.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Thanks for having.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Happy holidays to everyone.
Next up is court Carney, her fellow co editor of the book and a professor of history at Stephen F. Austin State University, also in Texas. How's it going, court?
[00:02:22] Speaker D: Good. Hello everyone.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: And Nina Goss is a frequent writer, editor and presenter on Bob Dylan, who teaches English at Fordham University in New York.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Hello. Happy holidays, everyone.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Happy holidays. Grayleigh Hearn is author of dreams and dialogues and Dylan's time out of mind and a professor of English at Xavier University in Ohio. Hey Grayley.
[00:02:46] Speaker E: Hello everyone. I'm happy to report that it is snowing in Cincinnati, so very Christmassy here.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: We're having nice wet New York rain here.
And last but not least, a Dylan author and presenter from Alfred University in New York who is working on a book on John Wesley Harding Rock and Rob Virginio hey, Rob.
[00:03:08] Speaker F: Hey, Jim. Thanks for having me. Happy holidays to everyone. And I'm eager to discuss this interesting album.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: I don't think anybody can say it better. Interesting album. This is going to be interesting conversation. So I'm just going to start off with a general question and I'm going to go do something a little different than what I normally do. I'm actually going to answer the question first. Okay, myself. This is our true confession time.
What was your initial reaction back in 2009 when you first heard that Dylan was doing a Christmas album? And I know what my reaction was. I'm not talking about hearing the album, I'm talking about when you first heard that it existed. And I know that I had a little. A little ajita. I was a little concerned. What could it be? After all, it was like a punchline, right? Dylan, I think there was a comedian who actually made his career pretty much doing Dylan, doing Christmas songs, and now all of a sudden, his career has been in shambles. So I felt bad for him, but what could it be? Anything happened the year before. I'm sorry. The same year the album came out was together through life. Not a bad album, probably in no one's top ten, but a little bit of a downswing for him in recent years, and now suddenly get a Christmas album. By the way, I also looked up. The next thing that came out was the bootleg series of the Whitmark demos, which, in my personal opinion, of all the bootleg series, that's probably the last one I ever put on, because it is demos. So it's historically interesting, but not too interesting to me otherwise. In the midst of that, we get a Christmas album. Little inauspicious. I was nervous, I'll tell you that.
How did you react?
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Can I answer?
[00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: All I want from him is original songs, and that's really what I want. So I thought, of course this will be rich and interesting covers of music that I have no interest in, and I just want Bob Dylan songs. And I thought, do you have to do this? But obviously he does. And he did. And obviously we're grateful that he did. But that was my first reaction.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Okay, so the lack of original material. Yeah. Anybody else?
[00:05:37] Speaker E: I practically detached a retina from rolling my eyes so hard at the news. No, I did not look forward to this album. I was skeptical. But Dylan has earned the right to do whatever the hell he wants. And so this is what he was in the mood to do. And the charitable contributions, that certainly helped explain some of the motivation perhaps behind it. But it was a puzzling career move and a puzzling artistic choice. So I wasn't sure what to expect, but was skeptical heading into the album.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess the charitable donation softened the blow a little. Maybe reattached part of your retina.
All right, so we've heard from Nina, we've heard from Grayley.
[00:06:21] Speaker F: I agree with Nina. I'm looking for original material and that we had together through life, which was an admirable effort, but not an album I turn back to quite often. And I think it was then Tempest came three years or two years later, after Christmas in the heart 2012. Yeah, so we were waiting a while for new Dylan compositions, and this seemed like a, again, charitable contributions. That's all wonderful, but it seemed like a very strange stopgap measure to just release something in the interim between albums that had original compositions on them.
[00:07:02] Speaker C: I agree. And I was hopeful that maybe he had written a Christmas song in my naivete. But it's also been a joke in our house that David, I think when we first started dating, used to do a Bob Dylan singing Christmas carols impersonation for me. And despite my skepticism, it's also now a joke in our house that Bob Dylan stole his impersonation. But I do think I was hopeful that. I knew there would be covers, but I thought, maybe he's written a Christmas song. Unfortunately, he didn't. But I think it's grown on me over the years as I've listened to it more and more. So I'm grateful he did it, even though it's only something I listen to once a year.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Who among us has not Bob Dylan doing jingle bells?
[00:07:44] Speaker D: I cannot believe this cynicism.
I listen to this record all the fucking time, and y'all should, too. Every month is Christmas month here with Dylan. I don't remember having a strong feeling about it. I think that's a weird time. I think when we go back, that period of Dylan's is interesting, right? I think this is the theme time era, and I think it fits into that. But I think it's interesting.
Not the record itself, but just like, why he's making these decisions to do it. I don't remember feeling strongly against it, which is unlike me, so I probably did feel strongly against it. In my bones, I was probably cynical. How's that?
[00:08:23] Speaker E: But not in your heart.
[00:08:26] Speaker D: No Christmas in the heart, but cynical cynicism in the bones.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Of course you can release an album cynical in the heart. I love it. Yeah, I think a lot of cynicism all around. I know there were a lot of early reviews that were trashing him for cashing in, and then people realized, oh, goodness, it all goes to charity. They should read liner notes. Which my understanding was he was approached about doing this album, if I remember correctly. So he was asked to do this album.
[00:08:56] Speaker D: Would this be the last gasp of someone being accused of selling out with music?
The 2000s, do we still think in.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Those terms, the Christmas album?
[00:09:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Speaker F: You mean in general court?
[00:09:09] Speaker D: Yeah. That language doesn't get used anyway, that's off subject.
[00:09:12] Speaker F: My students still think that when we talk about music, and I talk about music often with my students that they listen to, that's still, at least for them, this is just purely anecdotal information. Selling out is still considered a thing. It's still part of their way of conceptualizing an artist's authenticity or street cred.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I heard much the same thing from my students as well. And there was always this concern about if someone's selling ad is Dylan's copying music and lyrics off of other people, is that a form of selling ads? He just cashing in a lot of that. I don't know where this purity comes from. Given the state of music recording in this day and age. It seems a little naive, but there you have it. Okay, let's talk about when you first heard the album. What were your hot takes at the time, if you remember?
[00:10:05] Speaker F: I thought it was insane. I thought that his voice was really.
I can't help but think of the beginning of pay and blood on Tempest, where he tries to project that line, I'm grinding my life out. Now, one can say that bloody Fleming kind of vocalization that he produces at the beginning of that song perfectly fits pay and blood, but every time I hear it, I wince a little bit. Because he's still in this mindset, it seems to me, where he's trying to project in a way that his voice really won't allow him. A lot of the hark the Herald Angels sing, for example, as a song that's about singing and about the beautiful angels singing. And then you've got this really compromised voice coming in and singing along with this strange nostalgic. Because all of the arrangements, pretty much, except the Christmas blues arrangements, are pretty much with that chorus. They're back to those Tony Bennett, Nat King Cole Christmas albums, those kinds of choral albums. And so I thought it was insane, this voice that he was putting in juxtaposition with nostalgic arrangements. And then the song, for example, let hark the Herald angels sing. That's about the beauty of angelic voices. And yet we've got this severely compromised, dare I say, decrepit voice coming on, singing along with it. And I didn't really know what to make of it, other than thinking to myself, it's really weird. I don't know what he's up to.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: I completely agree with you. The first time I heard that album. And then it occurred to me that the little drummer boy, to me, is the centerpiece of the record. And that to him, this is his little drummer boy. This is what he has to give to this. And that's why you get that Parker Herald ages thing. I was overcome to the point of embarrassment by the sincerity. Sincerity as a quality.
It wasn't something I could take for granted in this record.
[00:12:23] Speaker F: I, in fact, thought it would be interesting, too. This is perhaps tipping my hand as far as how I feel about this album. Little drummer boy, I can abide. I really like that version from the album. If he had a promotional, not promotional, but fundraising single, little drummer Boy backed with the Christmas blues, that would have been a perfect little single. And then the must be Santa Claus video, because it's so crazy.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: But that little drummer boy video is the most beautiful thing.
Little drummer Boy, the video that animated that to me, is the whole album laid out in that video. And that's why.
Yes, but. Yes, you're right. So you would have been happy with those two.
[00:13:04] Speaker F: You like drummer Boy Christmas blues?
[00:13:07] Speaker B: I hate that song.
[00:13:09] Speaker F: I don't think it's a great song, but he sings it.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: I never heard it before.
[00:13:15] Speaker D: I feel like Tony Soprano in this house. We respect this album.
What are y'all doing to this album? I can't believe this.
I love it. And I don't like little drummer Boy, but I don't like the song. I like his version. It's fine.
My gift to you is my positivism, my positive outlook on that. But I think what's funny about it is that there is all this comedy and all these jokes about the record. And I think what Nina was saying is absolutely true. There's no joking in the record.
He's not playing this for laughs. There's humorous pieces. But the sincerity is there. And he clearly is saying, hey, let's put these songs together in a certain way. The charity on top of it's. I think there's a weird disconnect between how people laugh at it. And I do think, like Rob saying, there was a couple of songs. I think what you brought up is true. And I think also fadillas, where the enunciation is really there. And I don't know how that works. You know what I'm saying? That hits a little strangely to me. But other than that, I think he has a vibe and an intent that know, palpable.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: And whoever thought we'd hear Bob Dylan sing in Latin?
[00:14:39] Speaker E: I had similar impressions as Rob. In fact so similar that it's like we were cribbing off each other's notes.
So I love must be Phantom. So I'll forefront that without qualification.
I love that song. Every Christmas I can listen to that song. The video cracks me up and I had never heard it before. And I love the kind of polka sound that he gets out of that which feels very 1950s Minnesota to me. But I also made the note that this would have worked better as a single. Mine would have been must be Santa and little drummer boy. And those two I'm fine with. I can listen to anytime.
But I also, in my notes said hark the Herald angel sing. I hate to say it because I love Dylan. I don't want to sit around trashing Dylan. I love Dylan. But that would probably be my nomination for the single worst vocal performance Bob Dylan has ever committed to tape. It's shockingly tuneless. Here's a guy you think that has such great that he couldn't even pretend to not be able to sing, but he sounds like a guy who's never tried to sing before.
He sounds like he's been gargling with Drano beforehand. It's bad. And it's not the only song in which his voice takes whatever might have been a touching gesture and just makes me cringe. And sometimes my students will complain about how long Bob Dylan's songs are sometimes, and they are unconventionally long. But I would sometimes think it was hard for me to make it all the way through to a song, but I felt obligated to do so in re listening to the album. Love must be Santa love, little drummer boy thought Christmas blues was interesting, but I, after this roundtable, doubt that I'll ever listen to any of those other songs again.
[00:16:33] Speaker D: Grayley, you're saying that this two and a half minute song is clearly and by far his longest track?
[00:16:40] Speaker E: Yeah, essentially. That's right. Yeah. I don't want to have these opinions. I don't want to feel this way about the album, but I just am not a fan.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: It is a weird juxtaposition in that song. Harold angel sing his vocals with that very angelic chorus, the female chorus singing. It's really just a fascinating contrast.
[00:17:08] Speaker E: That's a well produced album. Musically, there are lots of things that sound great on the album. Unfortunately, the part that doesn't, more often than not, is what's usually Dylan's greatest instrument, his voice.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: Ernie, any opinion about the album?
[00:17:26] Speaker C: I think that. Yeah, I love it. I'm sorry, I'm going to be positive. I know it's strange, but the fact that it's completely bonkers is part of what I love about it. What Richard Williams at the Guardian calls his roomy growl, which it's just. It's strange. And one of my favorite Christmas albums is Bing Crosby and the Andrews sisters. So we get that.
And especially in the Christmas island song, I'm like, oh, this is harkening back to Melly Kalikimaka. But God, his vocal is. It's just. It doesn't make me feel any sort of island breeze. But I think he murders one of my favorite Christmas songs. I'll be home for Christmas. But maybe he's been on the road so long and he's craggly and so we take him where he is. And I'm just grateful that I have this little drummer boy is a highlight. And Grayleigh, I agree, must be Santa, is just delightful. So I love the album. I'm going to be in the minority. I know it's strange, but I do, I love it.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: I actually like that I'll be home for Christmas. His version, I think he sings it soulfully. His phrasing is superb. I will give it that.
[00:18:40] Speaker D: And the most important element of any version of that song, he does muddle. And if you're going to sing that song, you got to sing not the original, which was way too dark for. Even for Judy Garland, but the muddle line, I think is classic. And I think that's. I have come around to the Frank Sinatra rewrite, requested rewrite, and there's something to be severed that. But when you do that song, you got to do the muddle. If you're going to play with fates, the fates don't allow you to be so cheerful. I think that this record really works. And I think it works not as a Bob Dylan record, but I think it works as a Christmas record. I think there are very few Christmas records that have an entire vibe to them. I think you have to go back to the Bing Crosby's, the Frank Sinatras, that first Elvis record. But in the recent years, there's great Christmas songs, but there's not very many great Christmas albums.
I think this is up there. I think this has a consistent feel. I think it's got a vibe. I think it's got a tone and I think you can put it on and it has something that resonates beyond that. I'm not going to put it up there with a Dylan record, and I'm not going to put up there as a 2000s marker of Dylan. And everything that you all are saying, I think, is absolutely right. But there's something about it that I think is really sneakily great. And I think it has a beautiful vibe to it. And I think the sincerity is interesting. And I think this combination of old and new and all that kind of stuff is really fascinating. And the other thing I'll say is that the most recent song on there is like 1963, I think.
[00:20:14] Speaker E: I think.
[00:20:15] Speaker D: Do you hear what I hear? Which I did not realize was written in the think he has songs from, like, the 18th century and he has songs up to 1963. And I think you can make an argument that this goes into the philosophy of modern songs, world theme time, all that kind of stuff. I think there's something really touching about it. And I'm not saying I thought all of this when I first heard it, but it has really grown on me. And I think it's a beautiful addition to the season that we are in.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: If you had no idea who this man was, if there was no Bob Dylan and you had no idea who this was and you listened to this album, you got this album, it came out of nowhere and you listen, wouldn't you find it absolutely fascinating and extraordinary? The feeling and the humor and the range of material, and this man trying so hard to get this Christmas spirit across to us, all different palettes of the Christmas. Wouldn't you find that? I think that I would.
[00:21:16] Speaker D: That's the best thing you've ever said, Nina. I love that.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Thanks.
[00:21:20] Speaker D: I love everything you just said.
But we need more weirdness. This is what Christmas is about, is weird, dark, unlistenable vocals. Right? Matched with Andrew's sister level stuff. I don't know.
Yes.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: You brought up this song. Do you hear what I hear? I recently read that song was written not just in 1963, but during the cuban missile crisis and was in response, direct response to the cuban missile crisis. The two songwriters were feeling stuff and wrote it out as a Christmas song.
There's not a lot of Christmas in that song. It's a little tangential.
[00:22:03] Speaker D: I think Winter Wonderland is the other one. Right? There's not very many. It's Christmas adjacent. It's cold. It's for you all in the northern climbs. That's interesting. Though, right?
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Because.
[00:22:11] Speaker D: Do you hear what I hear then?
Is that the only song that is then connected to Dylan's recorded career. Everything else predates it.
And then you have that. That's interesting.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: No, it must be Santa's, like 1961, so it's roughly adjacent. And it was originally recorded, I believe, by sing along with Mitch.
[00:22:36] Speaker D: Yeah, Mitch. And here's the thing. What a historical event was that written about, Jim?
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Oh, that was written about a crazy party that has an uncredited actor running through it.
[00:22:48] Speaker D: I love this shadow history that all these songs are actually. None of them are about Christmas. They're all socio political protest songs that have been brought together by Dylan and his genius.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: They're finger pointing songs.
How often do you play this album, Nina? Put up one finger and put up one finger for those who can't see at home.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: Just in the holidays, this is the only time that we listen to it. So between Thanksgiving and New Year's, that's it.
[00:23:19] Speaker D: It's a hard one to pull out, like in July. But there is that great story where all of your favorite Christmas records were written. Were recorded by people in shorts in LA or something. Yeah. This is not a year round one. Right? That's obvious. But maybe it should be.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: What do you make of the title? The title is weird, isn't it? Isn't that a weird Christmas in the heart? There's apparently a pretty well known album called Christmas in the Heartland, which makes a little sense. What does that mean? Christmas in the heart sounds like a threat.
[00:23:53] Speaker D: I assume Scott Warmouth will tell us it's some noir film, like a book within a film, and a wonderful noir.
And that juxtaposition of Christmas in the heart and the music. But then the COVID image was almost just too.
Almost too much.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to talk about the artwork, too. But what about the title?
[00:24:16] Speaker E: You're giving me a thought. There were some thoughts I had in advance of our discussion, but now your question about the title. I'm suddenly seeing a connection here. So one of my thoughts in relistening to this album is there are certain parts of the Dylan story that are so familiar to us, so accepted as conventional wisdom, that they're almost articles of faith. And one of them is that Dylan is always forward looking. Don't look back. What's always the next thing? And I think that also links with a lot of us, our more progressive political sensibilities, too. Right. Moving forward, leaving behind and critiquing the errors of the past. And the flip side of that is to say that Dylan is never nostalgic, right? Never stuck or romanticizing the past in any sentimental sort of way. But I think there are certain works that challenge that tenet of faith and philosophy of modern song is one of them. I think that there are times I would call the work nostalgic, not in the way I think sometimes people have claimed that it's somehow sympathetic with Trump and make America great again. I don't believe that at all. Politically, the things that crowd are nostalgic for, namely white hegemony, is not something Dylan is in any way nostalgic for. But he does often come across, I think, in that book, as nostalgic for a golden age of american music, a high watermark that we've never hit since.
And I think Christmas in the heart is a nostalgic album. It's like a Christmas card that's been sent to 1956, hibbing, Minnesota. And I think that we can call it sincerity, but we can call it sentimentality, too. And I think both of those labels are equally accurate. But when you asked the question Christmas in the heart, suddenly the first thing that popped into my mind was the last stanza of Yates Lake, isle of Innishfree. I will arise and go now for always. Night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore, whether on the roadway or on the pavement's gray. I hear it in the deep heart's core and the sense of Yates living in London and the gray pavements and listening to this lapping water sound. And it suddenly brings him back. It's proof, Madeline. Right? It suddenly triggers all these associations with a beloved rural place in Sligo, in Ireland. And maybe that's what Dylan's going for, that this sort of sense that he's gone a long way from home. He's got many miles in the rear view mirror and many miles ahead of him as an artist. But that Christmas time brings something back, right? It conjures up something from the past, certain beloved, tender memories that he sincerely and sentimentally brings him joy. And I think that's probably the mood he's going for on this album. And that's probably what he's going for in Christmas in the heart soon. Just like Yates to sort of sense that you take Ireland with you wherever you go, even when you're on the gray pavements in London. And for Dylan, maybe you take Christmas and 1950s hibing with you wherever you go, too.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Interesting take. I do have to take a little issue with you, though, about the philosophy of modern song, considering I gave a whole paper in Tulsa arguing the exact opposite about nostalgia, that he undermines the nostalgia at every turn. But we can have that discussion at another time.
I do want to talk about Dylan as a satirist.
So the artwork on the front cover of the CD, at least you have this sort of courier and ives esque image of a man with a rather nasty looking whip whipping a couple of horses and they're pulling a sleigh. He's in the sleigh, and there is a woman behind him. It looks almost eastern european, their dress certainly 19th century or before. Very nostalgic, if you will. Inside the COVID there is this very interesting black and white photo, seemingly vintage photo of four musicians, a couple of them with horns, dressed in sad Santa suits. Right. And then on the back cover, this Betty page image of Mrs. Claus dressed for business.
What are your thoughts? Oh, and on the very back cover of the album or the CD, is this almost cartoon like image of the three wise men. Right. It looks like something out of a children's cartoon, the way they're drawing. It's a silhouette. What are your thoughts about the imagery?
Just not something we usually talk about with Dylan albums.
[00:29:29] Speaker D: Did you say that Betty Page was dressed for business?
[00:29:31] Speaker A: No, I said Mrs. Claus was dressed for. Oh, it's Betty Page dressed as Mrs. Claus dressed for business.
[00:29:43] Speaker D: I think that you can put all this stuff together and it's the whole element of the take. I don't know really what to make of the COVID but I think, like I said, it's a little too on the nose.
Maybe it's a little too much, but maybe it slips past that. I don't think it's coy.
But then Betty Page is there. Right? And that Betty Page pin up, plus those kind of the interesting photos. I think there's something that he's sort of juxtaposing there, which goes back to theme time, which goes back to philosophy, modern song. I think there's something that is clearly coherent in all of this.
It's not curious in our eyes, though, right? It's not. It's adjacent. I don't know.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not a courier knives image. I forget what the. It's a modern illustration that looks like it was commissioned for.
[00:30:35] Speaker D: It's together through life as a sleigh. Like, you take that photograph like this could have easily been the other version of it. They're just in the snow. The Dr. Givago version.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: There you go. Dr. Javago. That's what I was trying to think of.
[00:30:50] Speaker D: So we go from Proust, eggnog to Dr. Javag there's. It's all right there. Christmas in the heart maybe there's a little poe. It's all clear as day people come.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: On Christmas in the telltale heart I love it.
Personally, I find the juxtaposition, these images in the same album bizarre. None of them go together really. Right. They're all from different genres, almost.
[00:31:14] Speaker C: Isn't that kind of what Christmas is in America? There are all these juxtapositions of these different images. And he does a pastiche of them without explaining. Like, he gives us this cover that seems incredibly traditional. And then inside we have sort of these miserable looking santas. And that's potentially accurate, of people who have to play Santa. And then we get Betty Page and then the cartoon representation. And so it just spans all of the different ways that Christmas is represented and perceived. In not just american culture, but culture in general. And I don't know how it fits with the music. But I think when I look at all of these things, it goes from the traditional to. If you're going to say Betty Page is profane and the profane and everything in between.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: The songs cover all those modes. That's the point of the album, is that the songs cover all the tones that Erin is talking about.
It is the material and sexy and melancholy and spiritual. It's all there in the record. I think the images on the packaging are completely directly tied into the range of approaches that the music offers. It seems lucid to me.
[00:32:50] Speaker E: And it definitely does anticipate so many of the conversations we've had about philosophy of modern song.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:56] Speaker E: The juxtapositions of words and images. And just like with that, really. I'm sorry, with that book. I don't really know the degree to which Bob Dylan was involved in selecting every single image in that book or every image on this album. And so it's possible that we're making connections that are completely our own byproduct of our own juxtapositions. And not ones intended by Dylan. But as we've said time and time again, that really doesn't matter. That part. If it's an interesting juxtaposition, it's interesting whether it was intended or not. And it's interesting whether it's the exact intention of Dylan's or something completely at ods. I agree with Nina's interpretation and Aaron's. That it is representative of the culture's kind of pastiche approach to Christmas. But it's also representative of the song selections themselves.
[00:33:46] Speaker D: Approach.
[00:33:47] Speaker A: Christmas is a pastiche holiday that's true, right? It's a little Christian, a little pagan, little jewish, right? You get all these different things mixed in there to the holiday season, and then it's a little winter solstice and it's also a little New Year's. So it is very much a pastiche holiday.
So we talked a little bit about your favorite music in it. First off, do we all agree that must be Santa is a standout number or does anybody disagree with that? No one disagrees. Okay, so then the next question is, and we talked a little bit about this already, what is your favorite song besides must be Santa? What else stands out for you? Heard little drummer boy. What else?
[00:34:33] Speaker E: I have already mentioned this, and Rob did too. Christmas blues, I like. Nina didn't like that one so much. And I don't know that I would say I love Christmas island, but I like that it's such a quirky choice and agree with I forget who said it now, Aaron, maybe that it makes for an interesting Andrew sisters connection because the Andrew sisters were actually from Minnesota. And I love that whole Andrew sister thing he does in that recent interview with Jeff Slate because he makes a Cincinnati connection with that. So that's just my hometown. Purely idiosyncratic love of that song is that it's quirky and od and in a good way, not in a cringe way.
[00:35:17] Speaker D: This is where I flip. I don't think any of the individual songs necessarily work for me.
I think it works as a whole for me because it's far have yourself a merry little Christmas is a top tier song for me, but his isn't. His version doesn't rise to that. And I think that there's other songs on there that I can think of a lot of better versions. I don't think in any real way must be Santa is the outlier there. Obviously that's a very fun track that people listen to, blah blah blah blah. But I think that if you start breaking it down, I don't think it works as well for me. I think it works exceedingly well for me as a record, as a vibe and as a long playing mood. I think if you start breaking down the songs, then it breaks that a bit for me.
Old court is back. Everyone tear it down.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: What do you think is a low light of the album? What's the low point?
[00:36:17] Speaker E: I've already piled on to hark the Herald, but if I had to pile on to another, I think it would be a little town of Bethlehem. And that's a case where, and I feel like this is the case with some of the songs I like, least on the album is that it sounds almost like Bob Dylan is struggling for sounds. Breathing and vocals are so closely connected and I don't know why. And maybe it's just my imagination, but it feels like he's having trouble just getting through each line of the song in terms of his delivery. So I guess I would nominate that one as another one, but not one that I want to pile onto, but I almost feel bad listening to it. Are you okay? Do you need to take a break before we do another take of this song?
[00:37:03] Speaker C: I feel the same way about Okama, you faithful, because I feel like the phrasing and the Latin aside, I think that he's grasping for air in that one and it's tough to listen to. But I do love. I'm a little late to this. I like here comes Santa Claus, and I like that he twists at the end and tells us to thank God because Santa's coming. I just think it's quirky and fun. So I love that song in addition to must be Santa. But yeah. Oh come are you, faithful is really tough to listen to. For me.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: A little town of Bethlehem is the last song on the album, and the last word on the album is amen.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: Amen, right?
[00:37:45] Speaker A: And I think there's two songs he sings amen at the end. It's that and hark the Herald Angels.
Both are ones that Grayley singled out as being low lights on the album, which may tell us something.
Here's a speculative question. If Dylan was approached by another charity and asked to do a second Christmas album, aside from what he might write himself, what would you want to hear on this Christmas album?
[00:38:20] Speaker B: Silent night.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Why?
[00:38:24] Speaker B: I don't know. It's hard to sing.
See, I disagree. I can't stand the cronies. I can't stand. Do you hear what I hear? And crony songs that go on forever. I can't stand them. And I like the.
I think I'm sticking with my theory about the voice, the exhumed corpse voice on the carols. I think he's working that. I think this is Bob in his spiritual self. He's giving what he's got and he's fashioned the sound of giving what I've got. I think he's working that sound on purpose on the carols. So I go with that. And otherwise I don't want another Christmas album. But thank you for putting that thought out there because you never know who could be listening. Thank you, Jim.
[00:39:26] Speaker E: He prefers jingle. Jim for this episode.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: Who doesn't want to hear Bob cover Mariah Carey at Christmas? That would just be fantastic, wouldn't it? No. I don't know. I think Silent Night would be interesting. But Jingle Bell Rock might be cool to see what he did with that in the rough and rowdy ways kind of vibe. That might be fun. But, yeah, I'm with Nina. I think one Christmas album in Bob's lifetime is probably enough.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: Can I ask a question? If you were to make a compilation of his christian work, would you put the carols on there?
[00:40:05] Speaker F: They're so different.
[00:40:06] Speaker D: They're.
[00:40:06] Speaker F: Because if we're thinking of the trio of gospel albums, I'm hard pressed to find moments of this kind of uncomplicated love and joy on those songs.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: On the daisy.
[00:40:20] Speaker F: Yeah, this is a different kind of naive spiritual.
Quite the word I'm looking for here, but a kind of simple spirituality that he's celebrating here, which I think is appropriate for these kind of songs that work like proust, Medellin, as Grayley suggested, where it's like, oh, you hear the beginning of Nat King Cole's the Christmas song and it's evocative of that. It's got that affect to it. But, yeah, that's a really good question. I think they're so distinct.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: I agree. I think there's a collective spirituality in the carols. And that's not that intense address of self to audience, that evangelical address in the gospel work. I think that's very different tone. I agree with you.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: Great question.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: Do you think.
I know this is not how he works, but when I first heard it, I wondered if he wanted one of these songs to become one of those staples of the season where every time you go into a Starbucks you hear must be Santa. And every time you go into target, you hear must be Santa. Like you hear Mariah Carey or the do they know it's Christmas? Or all the songs that you.
I wonder if he wanted that.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: That sounds like a better world.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: A better world.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: If I walked in, I'd heard must be Santa over any of those others.
[00:41:53] Speaker D: Every one of these songs.
Every one of these songs can replace Bono's verse on do they know it's Christmas? So thank God it's them, not me, or whatever he's saying.
How about Bob singing fairy tale of New York? We can have him do that.
That'd be beautiful. Christmas waltz. I love that song. I've loved that song a lot the last few years. I like that song a lot.
He could do a lot.
I think the religious elements. Interesting, though, because what Nina is bringing up is like, how do you approach Christmas music at all? Is Christmas music even in the same realm? Is it an asterisk?
By definition, the carols, anyway, are gospel, right?
You can't really talk yourself out of that. So then, is it just a subset, an add on? I don't know.
[00:42:52] Speaker E: I've got another thought for you.
I haven't gone back to confirm it, but I have to assume this is the only Bob Dylan album that he's never done a live version of any, not a single one of the songs. And in that sense it's very much a one off. And if he were trying to have a famous song, you'd think he'd at least have sung it since he left the Jackson Brown studio in Santa Monica. But unless I'm forgetting, I don't think he's ever sung any of these songs live.
[00:43:27] Speaker D: Grayley, you're going to have to wait till volume two of Aaron Eye's book on the power and politics of his Christmas performances, which will be a free pdf for anyone who wants to download it.
That's interesting, though, right? He hasn't performed it. So if he's not performing it in his mind, is it a one off? Like this was something that he's doing for charity, this was a thing he wants to put together. It must be Santa could have been something, right? That he could have brought in with the band, but he's choosing not to. That is something.
Has he performed a Christmas song live?
[00:44:05] Speaker A: Can't think of one.
[00:44:07] Speaker F: It's interesting to consider this as a one off. And then you've got this.
I don't want to say nostalgic, because it doesn't quite work for it, the whole Sinatra Songs project that came six or so years after this Christmas in the heart, which seems to me to be a one off. Whereas the Sinatra shadows in the night and fallen angels and triplicate, that's a project I'm going to immerse myself in the great american songbook, Christmas songs figure into that songbook. And he plays those songs live. He plays a lot of them live. In fact, there's a distinction, I think, to be made between. And then the yield. I don't know if this goes back to one of Grayley's points of gospel that we just assume, but that the payoff for that Sinatra experiment is his renewed dedication to the more nuanced vocals of rough and rowdy ways. But that's the distinction I would make between the Sinatra project, which doesn't seem to be nostalgic. He wants to get inside these songs and know these songs, whereas this seems to be more of a kind of like purely nostalgic type of one off.
[00:45:15] Speaker D: But I think that parallel is spot on. I know Jim has been waiting for us to do a Sinatra session, but I love that the responses to that first Sinatra record were similar. Is he a put on? Is this a joke? And then he's, no, here's another one. Oh, and by the way, here's three.
That whole line is really funny, but I think that's interesting. Right? Like what you said, he wants to live in those songs. Those are songs that were. And I don't think that's completely off base with the Christmas stuff he's picking. These songs are particular songs that he would have known growing up. If we go back to the, whether, nostalgia, whatever italics you want to put, you want to put that word in, those are songs he would have known. And so then you're like, is he living in these songs? But it doesn't have the same heft. It doesn't have the power, on the other hand. But I do think there's something there, that connection.
I don't think it's accidental.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Any other thoughts about Christmas in the heart?
[00:46:19] Speaker D: I do love that it's the.
Go on.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: No, this is just anecdotal. Nothing.
[00:46:27] Speaker D: I was just going to say it's the one punchline that everyone says, what's your next bootleg series? It's going to be Christmas in the heart. And it's the one line everyone likes to put on their volume. Whatever. It's going to be the outtakes, but I'll take it.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: I'll buy it. Nina, what was your anecdote?
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Do you remember when a woman who was an extra in must be Santa video, she posted this detailed report of the experience online? Do you remember that?
[00:46:57] Speaker A: No.
[00:46:58] Speaker B: And rule it don't look at himself was rule number one. Do not make eye contact with Mr. Dylan. That was very. You can imagine the work that went into making that.
It was very interesting.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: And is that John Cusack in that video?
[00:47:23] Speaker B: He is.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: The guy running through looks a lot like John Cusack. Get a good look at him.
It really looks like him.
[00:47:31] Speaker E: I think it may be my favorite Bob Dylan video.
I like better. I love it.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: It's impossible to watch it once. Once you set that, you just got to see it again.
[00:47:44] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: The video is great.
[00:47:45] Speaker F: It is.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Was that the first of his violent videos? Because all the ones after that featured grotesque violence.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
What was that one with the man and woman that beyond here, like nothing.
Yeah. That was shocking.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Those are together through life. They're all directed by the same guy.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: The night we called it a day.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:48:17] Speaker F: It's got violence in it. But I do have to say that I thought it was. Maybe this speaks to my sense of humor, but I did really like the very last shot of the Ducane whistle video, which, of course, has.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that was great. I forgot.
[00:48:33] Speaker F: Steps aside, our main character becomes ancillary. That was really funny.
[00:48:39] Speaker C: That was funny.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: I think I'm going to make the call here. Thank you, everyone, for this really fascinating conversation about a fascinating album. It's always fascinating with this crowd.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: I didn't think we could pull this out to an hour, but that was.
[00:48:56] Speaker F: Here we go.
[00:48:58] Speaker C: It felt rough at times.
[00:49:02] Speaker A: Thank you, everyone. Really appreciate it.
[00:49:04] Speaker C: Thank you. Happy holidays.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: Bye, guys.
[00:49:06] Speaker A: Happy holidays, everyone.
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